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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof



    Lots been made of Sexton looked in the final 10 mins but you could make that argument about the whole team.

    There's an obvious difference here tho, in that we still had a replacement on the bench for Sexton. We didn't have one for Beirne or anyone else. All the other bench options were used.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,310 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Lots been made of Sexton looked in the final 10 mins but you could make that argument about the whole team. One instance of Beirne getting a pass and dropping to the ground immediately as he was out on his feet stands out to me. Subs struggling to keep up with the pace.

    Crowley was the only unused Sub, Beirne's potential replacement was already on the field. Sexton's was on the bench.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,854 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    People will be able to read whatever they want into that French performance to make the point about whether or not he should have come on against NZ. Crowley played very well, but equally he made a number of (completely understandable) errors that gave away possession a bit cheaply in a manner we simply could not have afforded in the world cup. I simply will never accept that there is a clear answer to the question.

    Ultimately, in both the final 20 mins of the world cup and in this 6N I think we have massively missed the extra playmaker ability of Hansen though.

    As to the longer term future at 10, Crowley is obviously in prime position. I would be flabbergasted if Prendergast is getting any serious international game time next season - he will be doing exceptionally well for himself if he got a bench spot against Fiji in the autumn and that is basically the only chance.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    It's too simplistic an analysis to say Sexton should have come off.

    I don't think anybody's saying Sexton not coming off is the only thing that went wrong that day.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    In hindsight we probably shouldn't have started Hansen either. It's clear he wasn't fit and JOB made a much better impression against the New Zealand defence. Broke multiple tackles iirc



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    That's the problem with the Ireland's selection policy. Once you're in, you're IN for good until you either get injured or retire. It's incredibly rare for an established international to ever get dropped or phased out.

    What we're seeing now with POM is a prime example of this. Any other nation at the beginning of a new WC cycle with players like Baird and Ahern, would have moved on from the 35 year old and be getting them exposure. But with us, it's completely in POMs control. Until he decides to retire, it's his jersey. I would not be at all surprised if he's still captaining us aged 38 in 2027.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    The same POM who himself was previously dropped under Farrell?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Fully agree, i can't believe guys like Conor Murray, Jack Conan and James Ryan were still starting for us in the last 6 nations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭El Vino


    For the man himself I'm delighted POM got a chance to captain the team to a 6 nations, I'd much prefer we have moved on however with Baird starting and Thomas Ahern on the bench. Also at scrum half I'd prefer to see Murray dropped and Casey or an alternative on the bench. I think there are plenty examples to show that Andy is an very loyal & conservative selector whatever your provincial bias. Results have been on the whole very good, but it is very fair to ask what might have been had he subbed Sexton pure speculation I know but I think AF got it wrong or bottled the decision. I think Sexton's status, historic reaction to being subbed when not injured etc all contributed to that at least subconsciously.

    As for Prendergast, when he makes a Leinster squad for a Champions Cup game with both Byrne brothers fit then we can consider him for Ireland squads other than that, he is not ready for it, the people who see him every day who's jobs are on the line when they put a team out will know first.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I mean, Care and Cole were right there, playing against Ireland. You must have seen them.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    Jamie George too. Sure he's 33, there's no way he'll make it to the next World Cup!!!!

    Same with Antonio in France. Imagine talking a 34 year old prop out of international retirement instead of bringing in new talent. It's inconceivable!!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,464 ✭✭✭✭cson


    James Ryan is 27...

    Murray for sure & Conan still has a lot to offer but maybe not enough for RWC 27.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I thought I saw Marler but I must have imagined it because he retired years ago.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,582 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    but but but, Wales got rid of all their auld lads and they got on just fine, didnt they??? eh... eh ??



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    I still think he was right to keep the lads like POM in situ for this 6N. It could have been a disaster without sexton, we were missing a main playmaker in Mack, and he wanted to make one of our inexperienced locks part of the main team.

    If it hadn't worked out the way it did, our new captain could easily have been in charge of a 3rd/4th place finish, and suddenly questions are getting asked about who's at fault and are the new guys really up for it. If that happened with a couple of older players still there, then we have the easy fix of moving them on.

    I'd be confident that neither Murray or POM will be there by November (barring some daft injury crisis), and I could even see some of the changes happening by/during the SA tour.



  • Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭El Vino


    Objectively ask the question were Ireland better or worse in this 6 Nations than the last one? I'd argue there has been a drop off in performance especially in the pack. Last season won a Grand Slam, beat a fully loaded (DuPont Jalibert etc) French team at their peak, this season we beat 14 men, admittedly away. A crap Wales team, a Scotland team that lost to Italy, lost to England and trounced Italy. I see this as a decline.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Genuinely think it's just as likely Wales make the semis in 2027 as we do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,557 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Could be the fallout from the world cup. But I do agree. We weren't very good, just good enough to get over the line.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,433 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Not sure what impact Crowley would have had to make McCarthy hit a clear out properly. The team went right down the pitch at the death to inside the NZ 22. Sexton was key in that, despite not making runs himself. The game was lost because of a defensive breakdown for Jordan's try and Kelleher butchering a walk over maul.

    This idea that Crowley could have come on and changed things up ignores what transpired. It's a supposition based on a fantasy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,310 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Sexton wasn't key to anything in the last 10 minutes, he just shovelled the ball to a nearby player. He offered nothing in attack, the defense didn't need to watch him, they knew if he received he'd pass. It made their defense much easier.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    Well we also would have expected a drop off without sexton, and I think we managed that pretty well for the most part. In that context, I don't think it's useful to see it as a decline.

    We can only beat what was put in front of us. England beat us this year, but last year they were down to 14 for a lot of that game and it made the difference.

    The main thing I'd like to see us do now, is work on what we do in situations where we can't get into our phase-play rhythm. England last year, England this year, SA in the WC group and some parts of the QF (though not all of it) felt kind of similar. I'm not sure we really overcame it in any of them.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    This idea that Crowley could have come on and changed things up ignores what transpired. It's a supposition based on a fantasy.

    You have no more of an idea of what could have transpired if Crowley came on that anyone else. (Personally, I think he could have made a difference; not 'would' but 'could').

    The irony here is that declaring he would have made no difference is no more based in reality that anyone declaring he would have won us the game.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,854 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Getting 60m up the pitch into the 22 of NZ is absolutely no mean feat and there is no way you do it while carrying a passenger at 10. He had obviously lost a chunk of athleticism at that point, but he was still directing the attack and choosing the correct options from the runners available to him which is a skill in and of itself. The point is that we did manage to get into the 22 and ultimately we lost out because of a pretty abysmal attempt at a ruck clearance by McCarthy.

    I agree Crowley might have made a difference, but you'd swear that Ireland were completely ineffective based on what you read at times.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,582 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    as likely as POM captaining us in 2027 aged 38.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,433 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Putting aside your usual red biased hyperbole, that's an obviously nonsense statement. If sexton was just shoveling the ball on, we wouldn't have had the organization to go 60ms down the pitch. Who do you feel was marshalling the attack at that stage, if not sexton?

    I swear folks didn't even watch the qf with some of the takes that come out on here



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The game was lost because of a defensive breakdown for Jordan's try and Kelleher butchering a walk over maul.

    Yeah, Kelleher lost his head completely. Five minutes earlier, Murray gave away a brain-dead penalty that meant we needed a try, not a 3-pointer, in the closing stages. Going 13-0 down before we even broke sweat didn't help either like.

    Crowley might have done something to win it, he might have done nothing, he might have done something very bad and completely put it out of our reach. Who knows, does it matter at this point?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    as great as gaining all that territory was, in reality ireland never really looked like scoring and probably only got as close as they did as they needed a try and not just a three-pointer. whether or not crowley would have made a difference is debatable - he probably would have provided more of a threat himself but maybe having a player with sexton's experience was more important at that stage despite how tired he was



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭ersatz


    We'll never know😎

    But we do know we had a fairly god championship and we know exactly how teams are going to try to pick us apart as both England and NZ have done fairly successfully. Forwards win games. England and France will be much better teams come next season, Italy too hopefully so 3 in a row will be a much tougher prospect than this year has been. I expect Ireland will have to improve a lot to maintain our reasonable claim on being in the top few teams in the world. Great position to be in heading to SA in the Summer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,310 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I'll repeat (as an Irish rugby fan) Sexton wasn't key to us getting up the field. He was close to being a passenger on the team from about the 70th minute.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭nerd69


    He was a 38 year old 80 mins into an increadibly intense game id be surprised if he wasnt lagging



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