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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,760 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Hertz will have an eye on losses due to a reduction in tourists hiring cars if they know they can get to the city and to train lines to the West easier; they are unlikely to outright say that though.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Hertz will get the business for business travellers and plenty of tourists who do not checkout the local transport on offer, or have the need for a hire car.

    I always tell visitors coming to me to take the blue Aircoach. Unfortunately the service has disimproved since covid, negating the benefit of the tunnel by going along the quays and getting stuck in traffic, and of course the higher prices and reduced number of services.

    Despite that, it is better than any alternative.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,304 ✭✭✭markpb


    I’d be surprised if the metro had much impact on the car rental market at all. A lot of it comes from insurance claims. The tourist part is definitely big but is there much of an overlap between someone renting a car and someone staying along the metro line?

    It’s very hard for car rental companies to find space because parking is either restricted or very expensive. If they have a lot that’s affected by the build, maybe they’re just looking for some compo for being affected?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,760 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I'm not aware of them keeping any hire cars at the Swords site, cause that's back office. There's large compounds for that between the Green and Red carparks at the airport; not that that's stopped Avis having a second compound down at Santry Business Park.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27 Brightlights66


    Interesting testimony from a blind person, who will lose her house under the current plan, and it's not at all clear that she will receive recompense for the money she recently put in to make it a suitable home for someone in her position.

    This wouldn't be necessary if a sub-river option near Tara Street station - with access from both banks - had been examined by the metro planners, and there is no evidence that it was, despite such a station being a mere variant of the sub-river station plan at O'Connell Bridge approved by ABP for metronorth.

    The advantages are obvious: there would be no need for demolition of the block of apartments adjacent to Tara Street, or of this lady's home and other homes; much easier and greater access to the metrolink from both sides of the river; and a dramatically reduced interchange distance (compared to the current proposal) for those wishing to change between the metro and the LUAS red line. The current interchange plans for those lines, as discussed here earlier, seem to be risible.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,050 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    We can be thankful that the silly cross-river Tara station idea in Metro North was not built and we are getting this improved alignment instead. It would have been an overbuilt nightmare and horrendously expensive as it would have to have been so deep.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,760 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    A terrible idea doesn't need to be examined by planners on the off chance its slightly less disruptive for one person.

    Anyone CPOed will get suitable recompense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,934 ✭✭✭✭josip


    I have and fúck me never again I keep the copy I read like a trophy on the shelf the spine bearing testament to my ordeal I originally wrote this with punctuation but then removed it as a tribute to the terrible tome why did I do that because I've been scarred by the experience



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Not around to copy paste the schedule this morning, but looking at the docs put up into the RO website today, there's not much to really talk of. Couple of letters from businesses that have reached agreement, and further assessments of buildings around SSG, including cadenza, basically saying that they'll keep an eye on them.

    The articles in the media from yesterday included one blind person complaining about how they don't like that they are losing their house (fair enough, in my opinion), a couple that signed to buy their house and then learned that it was going to be CPO'd the same day (highly unfortunate) and a group of small investors that were complaining about having to pay Capital Gains Tax on the increase in value of the apartments that they bought (these guys can get f**ked)



  • Registered Users Posts: 27 Brightlights66


    If a sub-river solution is so 'silly', how was such a solution approved by ABP itself for the previous metro plan?

    In my opinion that original plan was indeed silly, because it would have been built under the foundations of O'Connell Bridge itself, and thus would have had to be very deep. At least 4 levels down either side of the river, plus the platforms, as I recall.

    Yet, that was proposed by the planners, and then approved by ABP.

    It's not hard to see how something could be arranged along the proposed metro alignment (broadly Tara Street - Marlborough Street) that would not need to be anywhere near as deep under the river bed, and only supporting the river. It doesn't seem to have even been examined by the planners even though, as pointed out above, there could be several advantages.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,854 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Because it would be significantly more complicated and expensive and spending an extra billion to save one person's house is a rather questionable financial outlook.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It wasn't approved though, the government cancelled the Metro North project, it never got the go ahead!

    Yes, ABP approved the railway order, but it isn't ABP's job to decide if the cost is reasonable or not, just that the project meets various planning regulations.

    Anyway this is all pointless conversation now. Metrolink is what it is now, it is going through ABP now and is unlikely to see any substantial changes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The original Metro North also got its permission in 2008, in an Ireland where the goverment was awash with money and other, competing, funding needs we easily being met. A bit of showing off was permitted...

    The MN O'Connell Bridge station would have had to have been excavated in place, under the river. This is not just the most expensive type of station build, but also one in a high risk setting, which would have forced it deeper, increasing the cost further. Not one of the Metrolink stations is excavated: every single underground station is built using cut and cover, which is far, far cheaper and much more predictable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,518 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I'm gonna call bs on the later one. One of the first things any reasonable person would do before buying a property is Google the building and/or the street, they would have found out it was to be cpo'd then. They more likely fancied their chances at a big payout.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27 Brightlights66


    In planning terms, it was approved. The government of the day didn't have the money and decided not to build it, and that's fair enough, but the project had cleared all the planning hurdles.

    The transport body applying, possibly the RPA (there have been so many) spent several years designing what they thought was the best route, then applied to ABP for a railway order, which was eventually granted after, presumably, considerable scrutiny by ABP as to its merits. That included the sub-river O'Connell Bridge Station.

    One wonders why a sub-river option (Tara Street - Marlborough Street) doesn't appear to have even been considered for the current iteration of Dublin's metro saga, given the considerable work which went into proposing one before, and getting approval - at the highest planning level. As I said above, there could and probably would be several advantages.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,375 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Agreed, besides, they should be more pissed with their solicitors for not picking up on it than Tii planning a metro.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,854 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Because it would be way more expensive. It is not that complicated (unlike the station would be).



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    It wasn't looked at because it any station under the river would have cost over a billion euro on it's own, with very significant risk of delays and cost overruns, as has happened with nearly every station that has been mined out in recent memory.

    Metrolink has been precision engineered to not just reduce cost of construction, but to reduce risk to construction. This is the without doubt the right call, with the unfortunate result that some apartments, houses and businesses have to be demolished. Very sad, but definitely worth it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27 Brightlights66


    I'm trying to keep up with the costs in Ireland. So, could you say, for example, what the installation of the Jack Lynch tunnel in Cork - a 4-lane road plopped into a river bed - might cost in today's terms?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    No, one does not wonder that. Because all of the stations on Metrolink are built as cut and cover, which is much cheaper and less risky construction method then mined stations, which is the only way you could construct a station under a river.

    Metrolink is very different to Metro North, with a very different engineering approach.

    • ML all stations are built using cut and cover versus MN all mined stations
    • ML stations are much smaller, just 65 meters, versus much larger 90 meter+ stations of MN that were also much larger in other ways
    • ML single tunnel bore, versus dual bore of MN
    • ML fully automated with high frequency, MN driver operated with lower frequency.

    You need to understand that at a glance they might seem similar, but in detail, from an engineering perspective they are radically different approach to Metro construction, with ML using more modern ideas of smaller, more frequent vehicles and thus lower costs and risks with smaller stations. While a similar route, the approach is completely different and as such a station under the river isn’t possible.

    In planning terms, it was approved. The government of the day didn't have the money and decided not to build it, and that's fair enough, but the project had cleared all the planning hurdles.

    Sure, but that is just one of multiple decision gates and it failed to proceed on the last and most important one, the government ponying up money.

    Look, no one is saying you couldn’t build Metro North at the time, mining stations under rivers is done in other countries Metro systems, it is just vastly more expensive and risky.

    The problem is you are attempting to drop a single mined station under a river onto Metrolink which is fundamentally designed differently with all the other stations being cut and cover.

    Would it be worth adding an extra billion euro worth of cost, much greater risk and greatly delay the Metrolink project just to avoid knocking an apartment building, hell no!



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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    No, I won't guess at that, because it's entirely irrelevant to the main topic here, which is the metrolink project.

    The Jack Lynch Tunnel is an entirely different type of construction, for an entirely different type of project. Barring the fact that they are both a tunnel, there is absolutely nothing else that is common between them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,518 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Was there a historic bridge exactly ontop of where the jack Lynch tunnel was submerged? If not then there isn't a basis for comparison.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,050 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek




  • Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭DaBluBoi


    Will Glasnevin station have sufficient space for eateries? If so, they could simply lease a plot for Brian Boru



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    It has one space for a shop, I believe, with an exhibition room upstairs. I don't think it'll be anything else other than a shop in the retail space.

    They have mentioned including some of the Brian Boru stuff in the exhibition space.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    A few more docs went up, the only one of note is about Harcourt Terrace. Seemingly the residents there are concerned that the CPO of the substratum won't result in proper compensation, and are kicking up a fuss over it.


    Rather hilarious, in my opinion.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Is Harcourt Terrace even on the proposed route?



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    The tunnel goes underneath towards the Charlemont station.

    Pretty sure that the CPO documentation says that the substratum is valued at nil for almost everyone, so it looks like these guys are just chancing their arm, looking for an improbable payout.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I thought the tunnel went under Earlsfort Terrace.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,698 ✭✭✭jd


    You can see it here runing under Harcourt Terrace




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