Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

This thread for one.

I really feel like that picture alone doesn’t tell the full story, and it’s one is worth reading! 😁

Nah man, can’t blame Americans for this one, happened in Canada, and all parties involved are Canadian, with grandfather and son having failed to compete in the Olympics for their respective countries (Josef Tesar - the father, couldn’t get permission to compete for Canada; his son, also Josef Tesar, failed to qualify for a place on the Czech team). I mean, there’s living vicariously through your children, but that family takes it to a whole new dimension 😂

https://pashof.ca/inductee/josef-tesar-athlete/

But the circumstances surrounding the event itself, it belongs on Ripley’s Believe It Or Not - it’s both comical and perplexing in equal measure, with a healthy dose of scepticism. Ultimately though, it’s exactly as described in that it meets the criteria as an example of the moral panic being triggered by some people’s assumptions about people who are transgender. Some choice quotes from the article include:

The man accused the 9-year-old of being a boy or transgender and demanded Starr, 47, provide a birth certificate proving her daughter was a girl, she told The Washington Post, adding that the man’s wife called her and her ex-wife — the girl’s other mother — “genital mutilators.”

…

Tesar addressed the volunteer overseeing the event but loudly enough so Starr could hear from 15 to 20 feet away. He asked if the event was girls-only, Starr said. When she replied that it was for fourth-grade girls, Tesar allegedly asked why boys were throwing, pointing at Starr’s daughter and another girl.

That’s when Starr intervened, saying something like, “Excuse me, you’re pointing at my daughter, who is a girl.”

No, the man said, according to Starr, adding: “She’s a boy.” He allegedly added that the other girl was too, causing her to run away. Starr insisted that her 9-year-old was a cisgender girl, leading the man to hold his hands up to make air quotes while saying, “all right, a ‘girl,’” according to Starr. Tesar allegedly said that, if their daughter wasn’t a boy, she was “obviously trans.”

“This event is for real girls,” he said, according to Starr.

…

Tesar’s son said his father asked for the birth certificate offhandedly as a way to defuse the situation. Plus, the son added, carrying around a birth certificate was commonplace when his father competed as an Olympic-caliber wrestler in the 1980s.

And this is the really important bit, and the reason it belongs in this discussion:

The incident didn’t happen in a vacuum, but is rather “a direct result of the propaganda and dehumanizing anti-queer, anti-trans and anti-anything [that’s] non-heterosexual, non-cisgendered,” Starr said. But her daughter and other children should not be targets of that rhetoric, she said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/06/16/9-year-old-track-transgender/

Intersex players need not apply I guess.

Except that there is. What an appalling thing to try and deny, that’s what’s offensive

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16324-intersex

Said without evidence and dismissed with evidence.

LOL More US culture wars, as your link makes clear, people with DSDs are being weaponised by trans rights groups into "intersex" - in the UK (and Ireland) they fought quite a battle to stop people calling thel "intersex".

Here you go:

Wikipedia can't even give a citation for the term intersex (but does say that some people find it offensive)

A common adjective for people with disorders of sex development (DSD) is "intersex".[citation needed]

A "dsd-LIFE" study in 2020 found that around 43% of 179 participants thought the term "intersex" was bad, 20% felt neutral about the term, while the rest thought the term was good.

And also this: Mauro Cabral has written that transgender people and organizations "need to stop approaching intersex issues as if they were trans issues", including use of intersex conditions and people as a means of explaining being transgender; "we can collaborate a lot with the intersex movement by making it clear how wrong that approach is."[164]

So basically, in the UK and Ireland, the term intersex is still considered reductive and even offensive. Less so apparently in the US, where it has been subsumed into trans issues - often against the wishes of people with DSD themselves. I didn't realise that, but then I don't live in the US, and this is an Irish site, so I'm not interested in US-specificities.

In Ireland, calling people intersex is generally considered offensive.

Can't find much from the HSE, but there are these two mentions:

• a disorder of sexual development, such as androgen insensitivity syndrome

Early or delayed puberty

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/early-or-delayed-puberty/

Find out about the signs of early or delayed puberty, what can cause it and how it can be treated.

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/early-or-delayed-puberty/ (No mention of intersex at all)

And this which uses both, but mainly DSD all the same:

The term intersex is used differently by different people. In clinical practice, it was a term previously used to describe what are now termed disorders or differences of sexual development (DSD). DSD covers a wide range of clinical conditions with a wide range of needs, all of which are very different to each other. 

https://www.hse.ie/eng/about/personalpq/pq/2022-pq-responses/april-2022/pq-20035-22-david-cullinane.pdf

Is that enough evidence for you? (It's something that's so obvious to me that I didn't think it needed links to prove it. And to be clear, I don't make stuff up. As I think I've proven a couple of times now when you've chanced your arm googling medical info.)

There's no such thing as intersex. The usual term is people with disorders of sexual development. "Intersex" is considered quite offensive these days.

The UN don’t appear to have received the memo:

https://www.ohchr.org/en/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity/intersex-people

But as you made the point that this is an Irish site (seems unnecessary as we’re discussing examples from Overheal’s side of the Atlantic, but whatever), spunout.ie, should suffice I think -

https://spunout.ie/lgbti/gender-identity/frequently-questions-intersex/

https://spunout.ie/about/

The terminology used is controversial either way, with some people preferring the term ‘intersex’ over the medical terminology that describes them as people with ‘disorders of sex development’ - a catch-all term in itself which describes a range of conditions, but it’s the idea that it conveys that it suggests there is something wrong with them is the reason why people who prefer the term intersex to describe themselves prefer to do so. Depends on who you ask really:

https://www.minus18.org.au/articles/i'm-intersex:-here's-what-that-means

That's because they are not intersex, they are male or female, with different forms of congenital disorders.

So women with a DSD are perfectly welcome in the female category, whereas males like Caster Semenya should be in the male category for their sport (which is not golf, obviously).

Well that’s a bit rude 😂 But considering you’ve just pointed out they are either male or female, with different forms of congenital disorders, Caster Semenya is not a great example to demonstrate the point you’re making. She is female with a disorder of sex development, in your terms.

The issue with Caster isn’t that she isn’t permitted to compete in the female category for her sport, the issue is that in order to compete in the events she wishes to compete in, in the female category, the WA want her to take medication to lower her testosterone levels, which Caster is unwilling to do, not so unwilling to show her vagina to prove she is a woman, but thankfully that’s not necessary; the organisers have moved on from the days of forcing women to parade naked in front of officials:

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2022/may/24/caster-semenya-800m-world-athletics-hbo-interview

https://theconversation.com/ten-ethical-flaws-in-the-caster-semenya-decision-on-intersex-in-sport-116448

But should Caster decide for whatever reason to take up the sport of golf (which is not beyond the bounds of possibility - elite athletes are known for their multi-sporting achievements and interests), she would be eligible to compete and play in the top tours in the US, organised by the LPGA. They do not have an exclusionary policy regarding either intersex or transgender individuals:

https://www.lpga.com/gender-policy

She would not even need to compete in the mini-tour events organised in Florida by Stuart McKinnon, CEO and Founder of NXXT Golf, but then she also doesn’t have to pay the membership costs, one of the benefits of which is access to Dr. Bobs workshop… not nearly as ominous as it sounds 🤨

https://theconfidencedoctor.com/

https://www.nxxtwomensprotour.com/membership

Now, if I were a cynical sort, which frankly I am, I might suggest that this latest announcement from an organisation which practically nobody on Overheal’s side of the pond has ever heard of, let alone this side of the pond, might be seizing an opportunity to promote his organisation, which isn’t unheard of, but I’d be prepared to reserve judgement and give them the benefit of the doubt, if it weren’t for the fact that Stuart makes it quite clear that investment in the organisation makes good business sense. I mean, he’s not wrong, but the way he’s chosen to go about promoting the organisation is shady as shìt:

Stuart McKinnon, CEO of NXXT Golf, captures the sentiment succinctly: “The evidence is clear. Partnering with women athletes isn’t just a matter of fairness—it’s a savvy business move. At NXXT Golf, we understand the unique value and immense potential of women’s sports. It’s high time the industry recognizes the unmatched ROI that comes with supporting and sponsoring these incredible athletes.”

https://www.nxxtwomensprotour.com/post/unlocking-value-with-women-s-sports-why-sponsoring-nxxt-golf-delivers-unmatched-roi

One hardly needed a study to know that much, but here it is anyway, seeing as you can’t make a point around here without being asked for evidence to support it:

https://www.rbcwealthmanagement.com/assets/wp-content/uploads/documents/general/the-new-economy-of-sports-part-1.pdf

On these particular points, the study isn’t wrong -

The RBC Wasserman study found that women athletes:

• Engage with a younger, more affluent, and better-educated audience.
• Drive social media interaction at twice the rate of male athletes.
• Propel brand content to outperform brand-owned channels by at least 4 times.

Furthermore, brands that align themselves with women athletes bask in enhanced perception, being seen as 14% more inspiring and a whopping 43% more inclusive.

One only need observe the phenomenon that is an amateur golfer who hopes to turn pro in the future, Grace Charis, who’s been whipping up something of a storm on social media for… ehh, various reasons, including her golfing ability, of course 🤨

Grace however, unlike Stuart, isn’t motivated by money:

Beyond growing her game and her business empire, Grace ultimately hopes to inspire more girls and women to get into the sport.

"While I am grateful for the opportunities and income that come with being a golfer and influencer, I believe that success is about more than just financial gain," she adds. 

"For me, it's about setting and achieving personal goals, inspiring others, and leaving a positive impact on the sport and the world.

"I love being able to share my love for the game with others and inspire more girls and women to get into golf."

https://www.the-sun.com/sport/8141113/grace-charis-golf-influencer-paige-spiranac/amp/

Yeah can’t say I’m a fan of their output either, but that’s beside the point, which was that contrary to your opinion that intersex is not a commonly used term in Ireland, or that it has anything to do with where Overheal is situated, it’s far more commonly used than the medical terminology is used which refers to the same concept in a medical context.

I wasn’t even going to mention that the source you used, the HSE website, also uses the term ‘people with a cervix’, and that’s not a term used too often either, if your argument is based on the idea that you’re correct and the concept of intersex doesn’t exist because it’s not in common usage and some people who are intersex are offended by the use of the term. You cited the Wikipedia article so I have no doubt you also read in the same article that far more people who are intersex are offended by the terminology which refers to them as having disorders of sex development.

This sort of comment really takes away from the seriousness of your argument, you know well this decision is nothing to do with intersex people

DSD (Intersex) conditions are still either male or female specific.

They'll still be XX (or a variation of), or XY (or a variation of), and is completely unrelated to someone who has a trans identity.

Has the NHS stopped puberty blockers being administered to Children?

Interesting article. Better late than never from the BBC.

They asked a similar question in 2020:

22. Do you feel rules around transgender athletes are fair in your sport?

Yes: 82 (15.3%)

No: 82 (15.3%)

Don't know: 311 (57.9%)

Not applicable: 62 (11.5%)

The BBC Elite British Sportswomen's Survey was sent to 1,068 women in 39 different sports and received 537 responses. It is the third time BBC Sport has carried out the survey. The first one was in 2013 and the second in 2015.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/53593459

The question wasn’t asked in 2015 or 2013:

2015: The anonymous questionnaire was sent to 568 women in almost 40 different sports, with 339 responding.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/32995799

2013: A total of 503 athletes were asked to take part, of which 252 responded in the time frame. The survey was anonymous.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/21705510

It can’t be concluded from their non-response that anyone was actually afraid to respond, given the survey was anonymous.

I don't know how many elite female athletes there are, but I don't suppose this was intended to cover all of them anyway. Since when does one have to poll every single member of a category to have a representative result?

If the responses about their salaries and trolling etc are valid then so are their responses on how female athletes feel about TW in their sport. Those who had no opinion on the matter had "neutral", "not applicable" or "don't wish to answer" available as options.

You can't dismiss it just because you don't like the answer. There is a very clear trend of women being more and more against having TW in female categories. That this corresponds to a period when more and more sports authorities have allowed TW into the female categories could be just a coincidence, but, you know. Probably not.

Yep, that’s 70% who haven’t given an opinion either way, understandable in all fairness, they’re not interested in wading into what is in all respects nothing more than a culture war being waged on social media. They’d rather not be involved, which would also explain the lack of responses to the survey regardless of the questions asked.

I’m not surprised you don’t remember Kim O’ Brien, who is neither old, nor retired, and doesn’t appear too concerned about losing sponsorship or prize money for that matter, for forfeiting the final of the European Pool Championship:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/other-sport/irish-pool-champion-refuses-play-32251721?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

Riley will have to sell more of those Conservative Dad calendars if she hopes to be able to fund the prize money for all the women who forfeit games. Katie Sheldon obviously missed a trick:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/transgender-darts-player-who-beat-32431923?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target