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Clean Air/Congestion Charging set to be introduced by 2030

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,089 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,833 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    no one's stopping you doing it, in your own car in your own yard, away from other people that choose not to be exposed to the ugliness of your/any car, the noise of it, the smell of it etc. JUst don't have it driving or parked in front of beside me while I try to enjoy a coffee or a meal- than ks :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,089 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    It's not all about you though no more than it is all about motorists - though the latter already pay more than enough.

    As for the noise/smell. Maybe if the Councils weren't busy reallocating already busy traffic lanes to sit largely idle by comparison that would be a start.

    "If you build it, they will come" was a great line in Field of Dreams but in the real world most people drive because it's the best option for their needs or the alternatives just don't exist or are so unreliable as to be pointless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The low emissions zones are there to prevent the last few stragglers from bringing in their loud, toxic vehicles into built up urban areas



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,380 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    A bus lanes that "appears" empty carries more people per hour than the congested lane of traffic beside because buses are denser and carry more people.

    The fact that bus lanes are not congested themselves is a sign of their success, not failure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Anyone who is considering a new ICE vehicle today needs to know that they will be restricted in driving that vehicle in our towns and cities in less than 6 years time, reducing the utility and value of their asset



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,895 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    just to (unfairly!) pull a quote out there:

    "I'm not laying any blame on pedestrians, cyclists, or any other non-motorist groups here either...we're ALL entitled to be where we need to be on the roads/pathways"

    motorists are not entitled to anything. pedestrians and cyclists are (within reason), but if you wish to drive a car, you've to have the following as a minimum:

    full licence (or be accompanied by a full licence holder); valid NCT; valid motor tax; valid insurance

    anyway, people give out about ryan, and often the lack of public transport is cited; but ryan has been the best minister for transport in living memory for that. unlike all the others who had no interest in the brief, except as a reward for political favours.


    anyway:

    that reminds me of the closure of a road (as a trial) near here which the local residents fought against - and which they then fought to keep when the trial was about to end and the roadblock removed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,815 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Gave two examples of when the public didn't want change and it hugely benefited Ireland. That's a government leading the people like they are supposed to, Im sure if you look around you will still find people who complain about those changes. Some people just love to moan about everything and anything.

    So in terms of the post I quoted, an excellent example of the government leading the population.

    In terms of light bulbs, is that about Ireland banning the sale older bulbs years ago? You will need to explain to what the issue was with that one because I am struggling to see why that is an issue



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 404 ✭✭bluedex


    Plastic bags had alternatives, the old bulbs have alternatives. The Green lunatics are pushing anti-car policies, for example, without a comparable alternative.

    Put alternatives in place before introducing these measures, it's not rocket-science. They're so blinded by the Green Religion that its made them incredibly stupid.

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭highdef


    I bought have a fairly big period property in the countryside. One of the reasons for doing so (apart from the increased mental wellbeing and benefits of living in a rural area versus the noise, pollution and general unpleasantness of an urban one) was that I could be caretaker/custodian of a a protected property. A property which the government actively wants civilians to look after as it's part of our history and heritage.

    The house has a huge thermal mass thanks to the very thick walls. All good there. However it has some original single glazed glass, some of which is of similar thickness to that which you would find in a picture frame and was produced in a way that is not done any more so as a result I am unable to swap it out for something kinder to the environment and that also allows the house to be heated using less fossil fuels. And therein lies a problem - because I have to create a lot of heat to counteract the shortcomings of the thin single glazed glass, my option is more or less a large kerosene boiler that pumps out lots of heat. A heat pump would be of no use, at best it would be on 24/7 outside of the summer months. But the Green party is removing more and more ways that homes can be heated but for people with protected homes (protected at Government level), the amount of ways to usefully and legally heat those homes is continually being reduced and I'm not seeing the corresponding alternatives that are being made available to people like myself. I am being constrained by the same government who won't allow me to swap out my 200 year old thin single glazing.

    I have plenty of wood available on the land so I have one fuel source there but sometimes I need more heat than the wood can provide. I'm swapping out the open fires for stoves as that is permitted and will help things. I was hoping to keep one open fire but heating wise, I've decided it'll be stoves all the way. I use the excellent colombian coal that has also been banned in the ROI. You get fantastic heat from it and don't have to use much of it. The "smokeless" processed coal that is only available to buy now is not in any way smokeless plus it burns with less heat so after testing it for a while, I found that I burn about twice as much of it compared to real coal so it's over double the price of the processed/fake coal that most likely used a huge amount of energy to be created in the first place as they are all perfectly formed rugby ball shaped identically sized pieces......I don't want to even think how much energy was wasted creating the fake coal!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,828 ✭✭✭Inviere


    There's pedantic, and then there pedantic man....that obviously goes without saying.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,815 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    They will bring in bus lane enforcement soon which will stop the mis-use of bus lanes. Can't come sooner after driving in Dublin for years and watching so many clowns thinking it's their own private lane

    Once that is in place then an empty bus lane is exactly what is required so the bus can travel faster and easier from one destination to another quicker,

    In terms of the number of people who don't have access to public transport compared to the number of cars on the road, it's no contest to be honest. Removing a couple of thousand vehicles daily off the roads in Dublin will be a success. The few people without access to public transport should be in support as it will make it easier for them to get into the city.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,815 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Bingo, a free bus lanes means that when a bus is on it then it will be faster to get from point A to B, a lot of the problem in Dublin is buses are slowed down by idiots who use the bus lanes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    And you can pay a hefty fee for the comfort of doing so in 2030 (if you decide to keep driving a high emissions vehicle)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,902 ✭✭✭TokTik


    Anyone considering an EV should know that they’ll never be able to trade it in, won’t get anywhere near its value on the second hand market and will need a small mortgage to fix anything that may go wrong with it.

    Nissan Leaf, €35k new will eventually need a new battery after about 9/10 years costing €19k.

    Good luck with that.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 21,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭helimachoptor


    I spent a lot of time in Georgia (country), India and the US for work, and a dabble in the Middle East.

    ireland and its plastic straws won’t have any impact, no matter how good we do, or how much money these schemes costs, its a grain of sand compared to India and china alone.

    Georgia has a population of about 60% of the republic, it produces 33% of the emissions of Ireland. Those emissions will only grow as it develops and the population grows. They aren’t worried about the planet here (Georgia).

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    That article from 2021 is not happening at all. There are currently no plans to charge for electric vehicles in the ULEZ zones (in fact Kahn had tried to expand zero emissions zones but has been forced to roll back by the propaganda and scaremongering in the Tory press)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,895 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    if people are worried about how much CO2 china (or india, etc.) is producing, it's simple. stop buying stuff made in china.

    how much of europe's reduction in CO2 and china's increase is simply us shifting the CO2 burden of what we consume to them?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,821 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Good for you. Why you'd want to live in such a huge old house is beyond me but enjoy the warm fire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The EU plan to ban incandescent light bulbs has been an overwhelmingly positive one. Energy usage from lighting has plummeted, the technology around LEDs has massively improved and now you can get LEDs cheaper than you could buy an old incandescent light bulb, but it costs the user 90% less in electricity

    The same morons who opposed the ban on incandescent light bulbs are going to be opposed to stricter emissions rules in built up areas. Luckily for them, they still get to breath the cleaner air and benefit from the cheaper, better technology as a result of these measures.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,821 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I was reading a paper about the cheap availability of LED lights has actually led to more energy usage due to jevons paradox. We're a hopeless bunch, humans.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    If you build it, they will come is true for roads. If you build more roads, people will live further away from where they work.

    People measure the distance from work in the length of time it takes to get there, not the actual number of kilometres they live from their destination.

    Building roads just leads to more congestion with people clogging up those roads by travelling from further away.

    Improve public transport will lead to more people taking public transport, and this is a much much better use of scarce space than roads for private motor vehicles

    I think the electric bikes will be a huge part of future urban transport. It solves the Hill problem we have in Ireland, which is the biggest pain point for commuting by bikes (cycling up hills is miserable for normal people, (yes i know some wierdos like it))

    Provide safe corridors for ebikes and we don't need everyone to have their own car, and we don't need short hop public transport in small urban centres as much. If people can get to where they're going in 10 minutes by ebike instead of 50 minutes walking, they're less likely to take a car which then requires that they have to find somewhere to park it with the costs and effort involved there....

    The dutch have been doing this for decades and they love their bikes. Ebikes make that accessible for Irish people even with our hilly streets



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,161 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Just takes some political leadership then to expand the congestion charges to big heavy E.V's.

    Maybe not in the lifetime of the current Tory government however.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭ToweringPerformance


    You hope. In reality politicians will get voted in and will change laws to suit people's needs. Anything the Green looney tunes do now can be reversed.

    If people want to buy milk float cars that's up to them it's a free country and that's their right but i'll be sticking to my diesel for a long time yet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The incandescent lightbulbs had very poor alternatives when the ban was announced. (CFLs were rubbish and not that much more efficient than incandescent bulbs)

    In the years between announcing the ban, and implementing it, the quality and value and range of LEDs that hit the market massively improved so much that nobody even thinks about the old edison style bulbs anymore because the newer versions are just better in almost every way



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Paper straws are universally seen as the epitome of tokenism and I hate them as much as everyone else.

    Georgia will develop, and due to advances in renewable energy technology, they'll skip the coal oil and gas phases and go straight to wind solar and whatever else suits their economy.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,895 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    anyway, usual grumble about this. they'd achieve many of the benefits, for cheaper, if they just policed bus lanes properly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,815 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I would check into that, I know a family member has a period property and had to work with a number of people, no idea who but county council anyway, but at the end got approvals for a window replacement. They had to be made specially but the overall heat loss reduction more than paid for the installation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,815 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    "milk float"

    😂

    The majority of electric cars are faster, better handling, more responsive than a diesel car will ever be. Bang away at the diesel car, nobody is stopping you but don't slag off another car when you clearly have no idea how they drive or their performance



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 858 ✭✭✭Homesick Alien


    Yeah, I mean if other countries are worse why bother at all right? Let's just accelerate the burning of the planet together!

    Of all the arguments to not move to cleaner solutions this has to be the most selfish and idiotic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,174 ✭✭✭opinionated3


    Literally spoke to a main dealer last weekend that is now refusing trade ins of any EV bar the single one that they produce themselves. Too much of a risk to be sitting on the forecourt with no potential buyers around.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭daheff


    you know that public transport isn't noiseless, right? and it emits fumes too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭ToweringPerformance


    I know all about them thanks very much my son is a mechanic and that's the name they use for them. Look if you want to spend 50k on something that's worth less than half that a couple of years later be my guest fools and their money and all that. My Passat cost me 8k 6 years ago probably get 6k for it now but iv'e zero intention of selling it will drive it for another 10 years at least and enjoy it whilst i do. 👍️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,161 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Electric/battery powered or Diesel power, congestion/traffic on city streets is still the same..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I know what happens in our house now - more light bulbs and they just get left on. And of course on the roads, these wonderful LED headlights blind us.

    The point about the bulbs is that come the last time the Greens were in, it was one of the things that got them a right kicking in subsequent election. Another great disastrous Green policy of that time was banning bedsits. Absolutely disgraceful and has led in no small part to the hideous rental costs now forced on young and old single renters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I'd be interested in seeing this paper.

    From what I've seen, household energy use from switching to LEDs has reduced significantly (even if people do tend to have more lights than they used to, and tend to not be as diligent at switching them off)


    For industry and commercial use, LEDs should be a net gain, but the big improvement will be replacing CFLs which is what a lot of commercial and industrial lighting comes from, and they've been slow to adopt as many of their fittings are more specialised than the domestic range of light fittings)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭highdef


    It's not huge by country house standards (about 5,000 square feet) although I'm getting a +2,000 square foot extension built at the moment but that will be of modern standards and that end of it will be heated by more regular means.

    Why I want to live where I live is because old protected homes and other buildings need looking after and people who do so are basically volunteering to be custodians of such properties so that the buildings can remain extant, thus preserving the history and heritage of the country. Would you prefer if we just knocked all buildings that don't meet current build standards and erase all physical presences of them? How would the Green party deal with it if in power?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭daheff


    your comparison to London is not a fair comparison. London has a vastly better, more frequent, more reliable, integrated and better reach of a transport network than Dublin has. Granted they pay more for using it, but everybody's fear is that the result will be we all end up paying more taxes and have a worse commute to work every day.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,465 ✭✭✭MOH


    Because we don't have any actual journalists left in the country



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    By exactly who will they be restricted? The Green Industrial Fascists? Sorry boyo, they'll be gone for a decade and more, come back in 2035.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Yeah I hope. What a terrible future I yearn for.

    Except that what I hope for is actually being legislated for. What you hope for, is some kind of anti environmentalist populist takeover in which case we'll all suffer from worse air, worse water, worse congestion, poorer health etc etc etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭daheff


    go down the quays in rush hour. tell me how many bus lanes are not congested.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    You literally spoke to someone... were you trying to trade in a BEV when you spoke to him, or was he trying to sell you one of the ICE cars he has on his forecourt and spinning you the story he wants you to hear?





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Electric busses and trains are much much much quieter than diesel ones. And are emission and noise free when they're stopped at bus stops and traffic lights



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,815 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I have had plenty of Passats over my life, also Golfs. Big VW fan.

    None of them have come close to the performance or speed of an electric car. Plus it didn't cost me 50k to buy

    Over that 10 years the cost in repairs and fuel you put into the car will be how much? Im not saying to sell it by the way, the best thing for environment is to keep old cars on the road.

    But in terms of driving experience a Passat wouldn't touch my car. Test one and come back to me about "milk float"

    I seen a mechanic on another page posting that electric cars would run out of battery because you have to use the wipers in Ireland 🤣 the internet is full of mechanics making videos and dont understand the difference in a hybrid and an electric car.

    I also drive a nice big Q7 diesel and guess what, that cost a lot more than 50k and a couple of years later it is worth probably less than half. It's called depreciation, all cars have it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,815 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Nobody needs a 7,000 sq ft house. Then you are complaining about trying to heat it

    Slapping a big 2,000 sq ft extension onto the side of it is not protecting the building either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭daheff


    go listen to the scrapes of metal of the dart & luas as they go by. they arent quiet at all. Dublin bus barely use their BEV buses.


    and if your suggestions are right, they'll not be stopped for long in congestion. so noise emitting most of the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭ToweringPerformance


    Leafs are basically worthless after 10 years or so. A lady on our road bought one brand new 2012 reg and after around 8 years the battery was only doing 60 klms to a full charge and she just bit the bullet and sold it for pennies as the new battery cost was prohibitive.

    Here's a milk float that would have cost circa 33k out the door with only 89k miles and it's as good as done 10years later. I can guarantee the battery doesn't do anything like 160klms sold as seen also might as well be throwing money into the toilet. A diesel equivalent with 89k miles would be good for another 10 years at least if looked after.

    https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/leaf-ev-2013-sold-as-seen-needs-nct/36338056



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,815 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo



    Moving 100 people in one bus v 100 people in 100 cars? which is better

    Plus if they get the rollout of low emission buses then it will make it even better



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