Plans to end direct rail services between Wexford and Dublin

There are 'some' direct services from Dublin<>Colbert at peak times, so it's not a change "every time".

But notwithstanding that, and accepting that the majority of services do require a change at LJ, I still think Mark Gleason's comparison is perfectly fine. Changing at LJ is now an accepted part of the system, has been for many years (decades?). It's no longer an issue (perhaps it was when it was first introduced?)

But asking Wexford commuters to swap at Wicklow would be a change/downgrade to their current service and seems reasonable to me to compare it with Belfast<>Dublin travellers being made to change at Malahide.

Whether it's a good idea or not for overall network efficiency is a different issue obviously - it probably is good. But it's clearly a negative for the Wexford train users and needs to be 'sold' to them by something better than "it's what happens for Limerick".

Just because there were only 154 passengers doesn't make the inconvenience for those 154 any less. What you are saying is because there is only a small amount of people that therefore inconveniencing them doesn't matter, which to an extent I agree with. But MGs fundamental point that it is the equivalent of Mrs Dundalk being asked to change at Malahide seems correct to me. There is just more Dundalk commuters than Wexford so we are less concerned.

By the way the Howth shuttle service does have complaints - "we are being sacrificed for Drogheda". https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2023/05/16/howth-and-sutton-dart-users-face-major-changes-to-commute-with-potential-shuttle-trains-splitting-journey/

Sorry, but that is absolute nonsense.

Limerick is no way an equivalent. There are currently 3 direct Limerick - Dublin return Mon-Sat and 6 on Sundays.

The hourly connections at Limerick Jct are to fast Intercity trains, not dumping long distance passengers at the edge of a suburban area on to stopping metro trains.

It certainly isn't common on any decent European railway to stop regional express trains over an hour short of a major city for connection onto all stop suburban/metro/s-bahn trains.

I wait to hear your examples of all the similar places this happens.

The 2 morning and 3 evening peak Rosslare line trains are a long standing integral part of the service, removing them would leave a significant capacity gap which would have to be filled with additional Dart services anyway.

The 2 late trains probably need to return to Dublin for fuel/servicing/set swap anyway, that just leaves the post peak morning and afternoon trains.

If the proposal was that additional trains would only run to Greystones/Bray or a re-cast with a similar number of through trains and additional shorts to increase frequency south of Greystones I think that would be a reasonable compromise but cutting the through service altogether is just intentionally killing the route.

Howth is in no way similar, it is cutting a short branch in exchange for a doubling of frequency, even so there have been complaints and no doubt as the proposal becomes more of a reality I expect there to be lots of pushback.

well mark is ultimately correct.
limerick passengers change on to the main line services from cork, and near the start of their journey, as does tralee, so hardly a valid comparison.
whatever about tralee, the only reason limerick passengers are changing is rolling stock saving issues, nothing more, limerick could very much support at least a 2 hourly, probably hourly in reality, direct service.
just because people use the services from limerick, does not mean the change works fine, as none of us know how much passenger demand is being suppressed.
the numbers boarding south of wicklow are not tiny, they haven't been since the end of the recession, you should actually go and use the services and you will see what i see which is trains full to capacity all across the day.
there will be no increase in frequency for darts regardless of what anyone says, 10 minute is likely the frequency as is for the forseeable.
even if there is a frequency increase south of wicklow, a change on to a dart invalidates it.
ultimately, there is no redeaming features for what will be if the plans go ahead, one of the worst services in the country's history.
but of course we have been round this roundabout a few times before haven't we.

>_< This stupid idea needs to die. Permanently. It's not bad enough that IE is sending those godawful rattling cattle car 29000 trains long distance to places like Sligo and Rosslare, nor that the trip from Dublin to Rosslare takes like 3 hours or something, but to have it no longer even being direct and forcing the few passengers that remain to switch to another mode in the commuter belt is beyond absurd.

It would be like if Bus Eireann decided to terminate their services at the outskirts of Dublin and tell everyone to switch to local Dublin Bus services, this would be a particular PITA for people carrying luggage for whatever reason. It's beyond silly.

What Irish Rail should be doing is continually running direct services between Belfast and Rosslare Europort with Dublin “just another stop” on that route. It is ridiculous that if you want to go from Wicklow to Belfast, you take one train to Dublin and then have to change to another train to Belfast.

This proposal would make such a journey even more arduous than it already is - and there’s no need for it because the money that is being squandered on the Airport-Dundrum Metro vanity project could pay for a tunnel or tunnels for the DART instead, leaving the existing rail free for Irish Rail to run mainline services.

This does not seem a progressive proposal. As previous posters have said, Limerick is connected by a fast train, not one with 20 odd stops. Howth is short suburban connection.

While it is an urban area there are several places where passing loops could be added and this should be done to allow trains actually run to Dublin.

All things considered, the reaction to this has been somewhat hyterical. No, it won't kill off the service and might even grow more numbers considering the greater frequency.

These kinds of outer suburban changes to rapid transit are not uncommon. Isn't this happening with HS2?

Slower service. Limerick offers a quicker service with connections.

They might get it over the line if there was a 2 hourly service from Wexford but that won't be under consideration.

nothing will get this over the line trust me on that.

enough people will see this as poorer then what they have even in the unlikely event there was a greater frequency.

put that with all the other issues down here and people see this for what it is.

removing the rosslare services won't make any difference to the dart being able to run more frequently.
the dart can't run more frequently at the moment due to lack of rolling stock hence lots of half size trains running around, and when the new stock arrives signalling will prevent it for a bit until the new signalling is commissioned whenever that is.
the rosslare diesels will still run empty to connolly anyway as they are serviced there with big maintenence carried out at portlaoise and droghida depots and that regime is not going to change, nor are there going to be any sort of servicing and depot facilities built on the rosslare line as it would make no sense.
so this idea makes no sense, it's just a non-baked idea by the NTA who are clueless to reality hence the 10 minute dart with half capacity trains rather then waiting until the new stock arrived and launching it then.

The "direct" train to Limerick is actually the less direct option.

It exists to serve places like Nenagh but anyone going from Limerick to Dublin is much better off changing at the junction.

whatever way it runs, there will be the same or a lot more ECS moves to connolly as a trains is not going to stay running up and down the line as sets are swapped out as they require servicing or trips to portlaoise or droghida or a particular car set is required elsewhere ETC.
because half sized trains at a greater frequency mean less capacity available at a particular time meaning where once passengers could get a seat or stand comfortably, they now can't and are standing uncomfortably because what was once a full capacity train able to take the required capacity of the service, is now a half sized train that can't.
that does effect rush hour because a lot of rush hour darts are not 8 car from what i both hear and from what i have witnessed myself.
sure, some gorey commuters who don't really know what exactly they are getting and just see the headline of more frequent trains will support this nonsense, not their fault but the campaign groups down here will get the message out as to the actual reality and why this should not be supported ultimately.
infrequent users are infrequent for a reason, and understandably when they do use the service they want something that meets their needs which this plan doesn't.
meaning infrequent users go to not at all users meaning less users, along with the frequent users who will also drop out.

yes, from bray to houth junction.

I don't see the need for ending direct services from the Rosslare line to Dublin. Additional capacity on the DART off peak is less important than additional capacity during peak times, so it shouldn't be a problem to keep Rosslare trains going into and out of Dublin off peak. If you keep the Rosslare trains out of Dublin, I think you'll only make room on the tracks for 6 more DART trains a day (because there are 6 trains a day each way on the Rosslare line) , most of which would be off peak.

There is only one Rosslare train a day that leaves Dublin during what I'd call evening peak time(it leaves connolly at 17:33) and only one Rosslare train a day that comes into Dublin during what I call morning peak time(it reaches connolly at 8:46) so if they are robbing Dublin of an extra peak time DART each, I suppose I'd understand keeping just those two out of Dublin and running them to/from BRAY(which is better connected to Dublin by buses than Greystones or Wicklow, and a bigger town). That still leaves 5 trains a day each way that I definitely think should run to/from central Dublin though, which only robs Dublin of 5 off peak DARTs a day.

Having 5 less DARTs a day would inconvenience, I think, almost no DART users, but I reckon the need to change trains to get to Dublin from anywhere in Wexford(and some parts of Wicklow) would inconvenience almost all Rosslare line users, especially considering it would slow the journey down somewhat, and DART trains have less facilities (there are no toilets, luggage racks, etc. on the DART) It only means that a relatively tiny number of DART passengers will have to wait a relatively tiny bit longer for the next DART to arrive (which they could sometimes even avoid by looking at the timetable).

Some may ask why I think some DART passengers should have to wait a little while for their DART to arrive, when I think that some Rosslare train passengers shouldn't have to change trains to the DART to get to Dublin. I'm not sure if the number of DART users who'd have to wait is bigger than the number of Rosslare train users who'd have to change trains, but I am sure that the latter deserve better travelling conditions than the former because they are mostly making significantly longer journeys (A journey from Gorey to Pearse Station is much longer than a journey from Blackrock to Pearse Station, for example). I think forcing people to change trains from a Rosslare train to a DART just to get to Dublin is a significant disimprovement in travelling conditions, because (like I've said) it adds journey time and the DART has less on board facilities. Also, I think some people might be annoyed by just having to get off a train and onto another one, even if I personally rarely mind doing this.

I definitely think the Rosslare line should have a more frequent service, especially between Dublin and Wicklow, but I don't think this has to (or should) happen by keeping all Rosslare trains out of Dublin. I think they should at least keep the existing off peak Rosslare trains going into and out of Dublin, and maybe they could have the peak time trains and any additional trains only operating as far north as Bray.

if additional DART slots divert 1,000 net drivers off roads north from Bray/Greystones but adds 100 drivers originating south of Greystones, is that worth it? Depends who you ask. A South Dublin roads planner would probably sing hallelujahs. An environmentalist would probably condemn it since the south of Greystones people are each driving longer distances.

If the boundary of frequent service / train turn backs could come as far as Wicklow (along with platform extensions to 180m there and at Kilcoole, that’s a reasonably straight run before having to turn west away from the M11 competition and speeds fall off. But that would probably be opposed by the usual suspects since it would drive development even harder in Wicklow and environs.

because the trains that operate Ballina are based out of limerick and the diagramming and maintenence regime takes Ballina into account as the 2800 sets aren't worked as hard and generally stay around the limerick area apart from the Ballina set and the odd jaunt to cork to replace a 26 or to help out.
different for rosslare as the set needs to get back to dublin, especially if it's a 29 as it will be needed on a suburban, and in the case of the 22000s they are diagrammed to eventually get them back to the depots so one set that comes from rosslare could end up god knows where after it arrives in connolly, the servicing and maintenence regimes wouldn't change on either classes just to suit ideological nonsense from the NTA that has no actual need to be implemented.
there is not going to be servicing facilities built on the rosslare line, it would make no sense what soever, especially when usership south of the turnback would fall with this proposal anyway to a trickle of die hards.

@bk

Sorry I'm only reading the thread now, and seen this:

Howth is becoming a shuttle service under Dart+

Just to be clear, this is happening because the most common failure on the main line is the points at Howth Junction. The plan is to leave them set for Kilbarrack ←→ Portmarnock 99% of the time thus avoiding the issue. A signal controller working for Irish rail explained this to me. It's nothing to do with efficiency or min maxing, it's a work around for an intermittent mechanical problem.

That being said I do think that switching trains should be on the table for infrequent services at junctions, but not on a single line or on a Rapid transit system.

The points at Howth Junction have had upgrades over the years but they're still sitting on old wooden sleepers and the core mechanical system of how they work has not changed a whole lot.

Every cat and dog in the street knows a 3rd track is what's needed. Or at least modify some of the stations so they are like Clongriffin allowing trains to overtake one another. Looking North, the obvious choices are Clontarf Road and Raheny.

Looking South there are options along the coast but the problem is all the level crossings…. If only there was an elevated rail system from the South into somewhere like Harcourt St… Oh wait… 😂🤣

We'll agree to disagree, I'm only relaying what I've been told by a person that works in CTC.

I think it's a risky move to be honest, it's only 3.5 miles long with 3 stops. (Very short for a branch). A feeder bus service would be significantly cheaper than operating a 3.5 mile branch. Either that or people will get the H3 or the 6

Worst case scenario the service is stopped cause no one uses it and tracks get lifted. (I get that's extreme but it's not impossible) It would also be political suicide, ripping up track in this day and age is not gonna win votes 🤣

On the scheduling, if you want to maintain a half-hourly DART to/from Greystones, then there are only two paths each hour that can be used between Bray and Greystones in either direction for trains to/from south of Greystones.

A northbound train from south of Greystones would have to run directly in front of a northbound DART, and then it could have a 12 min turnaround at Bray and return 6 mins behind a southbound DART as at present.

The did of course tender for SDO for the 22ks; but did not proceed with the tender

Were any reasons revealed for that?