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Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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    #3752
    Hungry Burger
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Hungry Burger


    What we’ve seen in Scotland is nothing short of hilarious.



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    #3753
    Shoog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,921 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000030#Comment_122000030

    Hate speech is a crime to those who are subjected to it, it cause real harm and destroys real lives.



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    #3754
    Shoog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,921 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000031#Comment_122000031

    It suggests there are a lot of dick heads with serious disruptive agendas. As I have said before most of those 8000 complaints are from opponents of the legislation who want to bring it into disrepute. Not big and not clever.



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    #3755
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000139#Comment_122000139

    It doesn't matter what the source of the mass reporting is — whether it's pro or anti-legislation sources. The police are obliged to look into each case, otherwise they have no idea which case is legitimate and which case is not.

    So what matters is that the problem exists.

    To prevent it existing, the legislation in this country must be amended — as you yourself have already implied.



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    #3756
    Shoog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,921 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000151#Comment_122000151

    The system must be developed to deal with vexatious complaints. The law is just the foundation on which the administrative system is built. The lesson to learn is to anticipate dick heads trying to crash the system and have a way of dealing with them otherwise those dick heads win - which was their intention all along.

    We cannot be governed by a rowdy mob of foot stampers.



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    #3757
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000132#Comment_122000132

    Yes, and so can bullying but where is the legislation to combat that ?

    So can verbal abuse but where is the law to stop this if the abuse is not listed in a "protected class" - a male wearing a female wig is mocked online or in person and can report this on the grounds of "gender expression" - the same moron pillories a female wearing a wig due to alopecia or cancer treatment and she has no recourse. Yet I would argue the latter has caused more psychogical harm.

    Supporters of this insane bill do not care about people's feelings or stopping "lives being destroyed" - they want to limit discussion and debate on agendas they have.



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    #3758
    Shoog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,921 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000175#Comment_122000175

    I want to see consequences for people who threaten violence to minorities and induce others into acts of violence against others. This what the legislation is all about. Your examples are an attempt to minimise the seriousness of hate speech by using absurd examples.



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    #3759
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000188#Comment_122000188

    Only part of the legislation is about incitement to violence, which most people are on-board with (and as an addendum to that, why do you only specify "minorities"? Why shouldn't everyone be protected?). You are deliberately misleading people by saying this is what the legislation, to quote you, "is all about".

    It's every other part of the legislation, the so-called "hate speech" part, that people have a problem with. This has been explained many times now.

    Put another way, if the legislation were only about criminalizing incitement to violence, I would be in favour of passing it.

    It's precisely because the legislation is not only about this, that I have a major issue. 8,000+ reports in Scotland are not about incitement to violence. It's about the hate speech part, as well you know.



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    #3760
    Shoog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,921 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000217#Comment_122000217

    I don't accept your characterization of the bills function so we are going to have to agree to disagree on that.



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    #3761
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000226#Comment_122000226

    Don't take my word for it.

    The title of the legislation is, Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022.



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    #3762
    Shoog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,921 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000243#Comment_122000243

    I won't take your word for it thanks.



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    #3763
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000260#Comment_122000260

    This is why we do not need this bill. Dogma. Ideologues who refuse to see any perspective but their own.

    By the way - nice categorising of the bullying in my post as "an absurd example" and key that you care about "minorities" - so hate speech is okay against Irish people ? Women ? Any age demographic which is the majority ?

    See the "hate speech" part of the Bill is utter nonsense and you know it, your entrenched position doesn't allow you to see any point of view but what you have decided.



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    #3764
    Shoog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,921 ✭✭✭Shoog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000357#Comment_122000357

    Hate speech can apply to anyone - but protected categories of minorities is based on those groups who are most subjected to hate speech. This is based upon analysis of actual crimes. If Irish people were disproportionately subjected to hate speech in Ireland they would warrant been a prescribed category - but hopefully you understand why this is not the case.



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    #3765
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,754 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121999366#Comment_121999366

    Of all people you should know the dangers of making a false complaint of rape to the Gardai.



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    #3766
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121999815#Comment_121999815

    That what investigation are for. Someone makes a complaint to Gardai who then investigate.

    It is the exact same as any other complaint/investigation.

    There are penalties for making a false statement.



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    #3767
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121999813#Comment_121999813

    There is no such thing as a notice of non crime hate incident. That's facts. I don't think it's me gaslighting



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    #3768
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000373#Comment_122000373

    Ah the old "you don't understand" - it's not going to work anymore that, the veil has been lifted.

    What about women ? You don't think the fight for women's rights needs to continue, even more so now ? Women are a majority in Ireland - do we not need protection from hate speech ?

    By the way - great to see you've finally accepted the Bill is about hate speech and not just "incitement to violence".



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    #3769
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000400#Comment_122000400

    If someone claims "hatred" against them because of something they read online, you cannot prove their claim is feigned or not.

    We can never know if they are being sincere. After all, it's subjective, what someone "perceives" to be hateful against them.

    8,000+ complaints in Scotland in a week strongly suggests that what I'm saying is true.



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    #3770
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998722#Comment_121998722

    It's not dead though. There will be some amendments of course but it is very far from dead.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #3771
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000414#Comment_122000414

    Same as any other complaint. There is nothing new about the way these crimes will be reported or investigated.

    If there is no crime, there will be no prosecution.



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    #3772
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000421#Comment_122000421

    The legislation allows for people to feign sincerity with their complaints of hatred which, at the very least, will be noted as non-crime hate incidents. It encourages people to report on the basis of how they "perceive" hatred against them.

    It's not "the same as any other complaint"; it is a subjective complaint and it wastes police time, as the experiment in Scotland has already demonstrated. The head of Scotland's police has already confirmed this. I will take his word on the matter, if you don't mind. Or is it your position that he's lying?

    Do you think 8,000 complaints a week in Scotland is okay? How many do you think are done by bad actors?

    I would say quite a lot, on both extremes.

    Doesn't that suggest the very weakness of the legislation, that it opens up the opportunity for people to take advantage of it in such an egregious manner?

    So the issue isn't the degree of "prosecutions", how you have erroneously tried to frame it.

    The issue is wasting police time, feigned sincerity, and people trying to settle scores or personal vendettas through this legislation.

    Put simply, this legislation will be manipulated by bad actors who take personal offense at opinions they don't like. Not actual hatred (undefined), but personal opinions that oppose their own ideological worldview.

    That's the real reason they support the legislation, not how they try to sell the legislation to the public through disingenuous sleight-of-hand.



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    #3773
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,958 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000400#Comment_122000400

    The process is the punishment. You could have someone's entire life turned upside down just by filing a complaint. This is true for current legislation and will be even more for this.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #3774
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000529#Comment_122000529

    That's the insidious intent behind much of the core support base for this legislation.



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    #3775
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000472#Comment_122000472

    We currently record non crime hate incidents, so no change there.

    Your continual arguments about subjectivity means nothing, as every reported incident to Gardai is subjective based on the complainant.

    Make a complaint of dangerous driving? You do so in your perceived subjective view that the driver is driving dangerously. That doesn't make it so.

    Gardai waste time on frivolous, vexatious complaints everyday, nothing new there either.

    Dodo I believe some complainants will be bad actors? Absolutely. As is currently the case with many reports to Gardai.



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    #3776
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000421#Comment_122000421

    "If there is no crime there will be no prosecution".

    Someone let Amnesty, the ACLU, and Paddy Hill's organisation "Say I'm Innocent" know - they can down tools.



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    #3777
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000472#Comment_122000472

    This is utterly silly. I could go in and make a complaint right now. The legislation makes no difference.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #3778
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000529#Comment_122000529

    What current legislation does this? Again though this is silly. If a complaint isn't taken further by the DPP. Well then that's it.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #3779
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000529#Comment_122000529

    This.

    I've tried to explain this but you either get stupid questions, gaslighting nonsense or just denial.

    I suspect they actually are glad to see people not express their opinions due to the fear of losing their jobs etc. It's a win/win for the Orwellian crowd.



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    #3780
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000529#Comment_122000529

    I agree but won't be any more for this. Any complaint made falsely against someone will turn their life upside down. That's why there is an offence for making a false statement.



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    #3781
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000590#Comment_122000590

    Bit weird. Who is at danger of losing their jobs?



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