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Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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    #3782
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000601#Comment_122000601

    And you genuinely believe that anyone will be charged with making a false statement ? Jesus wept!

    That is why this is a bad law - there is so much ambiguity in it that good people will be harmed by accusations - that dreadful troll India Willoughby is stamping her size 13s again complaining because Police Scotland haven't prosecuted people who don't like them. It's being used elsewhere to silence critics and will here.



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    #3783
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000608#Comment_122000608

    People are charged with making false statements regularly. Don't know why you think gardai wouldn't



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    #3784
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000616#Comment_122000616

    Then perhaps read my post which you replied to which actually surmises why.



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    #3785
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000631#Comment_122000631

    No. It doesn't. People are charged with making false statements.



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    #3786
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,958 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000588#Comment_122000588

    It's not silly though. Scotland has recently showed that there's a lot of people out there willing to do just this.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #3787
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,958 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    You're going to have to explain to me how having a false claim made against you will turn the other side's life upside down? There will be nothing done to the people making false complaints, just like it is now.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #3788
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,958 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Indeed, it's not exactly difficult to understand.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #3789
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000637#Comment_122000637

    Yes it does.

    This law has too many ambiguities that the mere accusation is enough to turn someone's life upside down and the complainant will never face any charges as they "perceive" they have been a victim of a crime.

    Playing chess with a pigeon here. Again.



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    #3790
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000577#Comment_122000577

    When was the last time you saw 8,000+ complaints in a week, as in Scotland?

    You are comparing something standard and normal with something non-standard and abnormal — pretending that what is typical is consonant with what is happening / can happen with this legislation.

    You're downplaying what has happened in Scotland; and are openly contradicting the head of police in Scotland whilst, at the same time, pretending there are "no changes" anywhere. And likewise, there would be "no changes" here.

    Nobody is falling for this.



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    #3791
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000580#Comment_122000580

    After the legislation passed in Scotland, 8,000+ complaints were registered in a week. That's not normal, that's not "no difference".

    Those 8,000 complaints could have been reported, according to your logic, before the legislation was passed — but they didn't. They only reported after the legislation was passed. The police service is now overwhelmed with nonsense, distracting the force from confronting real and legitimate crimes — not the hurt feelings of adults who never grew up and those who seek protection from criticism via the weaponization of this legislation.

    That's not okay, and any references to "no difference" are undermined directly by what is happening in Scotland and the head of police and, by extension, what would happen here if the equivalent legislation is passed.

    Scotland ran the experiment, and the experiment failed.

    We'd be ridiculous to emulate that which has proven to be defective legislation.



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    #3792
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000737#Comment_122000737

    People are prosecuted for.making false statements. Same as happens now.



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    #3793
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000755#Comment_122000755

    And you don't appear to be reading posts.

    I have kindly explained how every report ever by a complainant is a perceived crime as they see it, subjectively. There is nothing new with this legislation.



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    #3794
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000805#Comment_122000805

    It's the first week of a well publicised law. If course there will thousands of reports. You would be very naive to think otherwise

    II have no idea what kind of laws they had one Scotland before this one, not do I know how many crimes are reported weekly.



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    #3795
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000862#Comment_122000862

    Not so.

    Legislation says that any "perceived" hatred against a person must be taken at face value and, at the very least, documented as a "non-crime hate incident".

    So in this case, you cannot disprove the thoughts in someone's mind of their claim to be perceiving hatred against them, unless they personally tell you they are lying.

    A question; if someone goes to the police and makes a false or deliberately exaggerated claim of perceived hatred against them, how can you claim to know they are telling the truth or lying about their claimed perception?



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    #3796
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000872#Comment_122000872

    Every report of a crime is taken 'at face value' and investigated.

    We already record non crime.hate incidents.

    It doesn't matter what is in someone head, if a crime hasn't been committed there won't be a prosecution. I'm not sure why posters seem to believe that this legislation will allow random members of the population to become judges🙄



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    #3797
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,566 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000862#Comment_122000862

    In Scotland, what porpotion of the 8000 statements would you estimate to be false? Would you expect each and every one of those statements to be investigated?

    How many additional police, solicitors, judges and admin staff are required to deal with invetigating 8000 complaints, associated prosecutions for those that deem it and indeed prosecutions against those that were found to have made a false statement?

    I said it before but this bill is never going into law in its current guise and may not in any guise.



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    #3798
    TokTik
    Registered Users Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭TokTik


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000132#Comment_122000132

    When I was young we were told “sticks and stones may break my bone, but words can never hurt me”.

    The softening of society is a pathetic thing. No wonder the likes of Putin is looking at Europe and thinking he can do what he likes. With famine, poverty and war all over the globe, here we are in Europe squabbling about hurty words by order of the EU.



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    #3799
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000897#Comment_122000897

    To summarize, none of that post addresses any of the points in my post. It addresses other straw men positions I don't hold, or didn't make, but it didn't address any of the points I did make.

    I'll try one last time, though:

    If someone goes to the police and makes a false or deliberately exaggerated claim of perceived hatred against them, how can you claim to know their claimed perception is false / lying?

    Note the difference between this and other types of allegation.

    Someone could go to the police today and make a false claim that their home was burgled. That would then be investigated by police who could gather evidence to establish whether the claim is true / what happened. There may be physical evidence — such as CCTV — to disprove their allegation, prove that they are lying. We can establish objective criteria, in other words, independently from the person making the claim.

    Let's take a different case, where an individual says something that another person deems offensive — but not necessarily at a threshold that breaks hate speech laws. That offended person is so animated by their dislike of that person that they decide to deliberately exaggerate their claim of offense, claiming instead a "perception of hatred" against them. The case is then investigated on false pretences but unlike the burglary case above, there is no possible way of knowing whether that person is being sincere or whether they are taking advantage of the hate speech legislation. Then, even if the police decide not to pursue the case any further, they will file the case as an example of a non-crime hate incident. So this is a win-win for the complainant — all on false and misleading grounds you cannot disprove.

    And that was the distinction I was making.

    This legislation makes it possible — or even actively incentivizes — people to make deliberately exaggerated claims; where they will reframe their claim of "offense" as an act of "hatred" against them. We all knew this would happen and indeed, it happened with JK Rowling within seconds of the legislation coming into force in Scotland.

    When you cannot disprove someone's intention, those bad actors will do their best to manipulate the law in their favour.



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    #3800
    gym_imposter
    Registered Users Posts: 903 ✭✭✭gym_imposter


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000915#Comment_122000915

    Weak men make hard times



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    #3801
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000841#Comment_122000841

    Ireland isn't Scotland. It is a silly excuse to say "no we can't bring in this law cause people might abuse it"

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #3802
    concerned_tenant
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001261#Comment_122001261

    We can't bring in bad legislation just because a small part of the legislation is good. That's just bad lawmaking.

    I agree with you that Ireland isn't Scotland.



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    #3803
    nachouser
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭nachouser


    Numbers from Scotland. (This new link system on here is abysmal on mobile.)

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2024/apr/10/rishi-sunak-keir-starmer-conservatives-labour-uk-politics-live?CMP=share_btn_url&page=with%3Ablock-661677f38f0882d1a2add392#block-661677f38f0882d1a2add392



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    #3804
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,792 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Came across a Labour party member in Scotland giving a left wing analysis on the situation in Gaza, the tweet starts with "I hate Jews" and it descends after that.

    Quick anon report via the Scottish police site and another blow struck against tyranny.

    The law exists in Scotland so make it a success, report something every day, let it be 10k reports a week indefinitely, show them the reality of this stasi legislation. At least the police in Scotland will get lots of overtime and you'll have helped in a civic duty.

    The idea of the Guards dealing with 10k a day will be very supportive of McEntees law.



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    #3805
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,643 ✭✭✭Feisar


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001518#Comment_122001518

    "Another blow struck against tyranny" hahaha 😂

    First they came for the socialists...



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    #3806
    Vote4Squirrels
    Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001518#Comment_122001518

    There are even “hate centres” set up on campuses in Scotland where you can go to report a perceived hate incident.

    The McStasi have thought of everything and I imagine UCD are getting their place ready as we speak.



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    #3807
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,792 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000018#Comment_122000018

    Is this a homophobic post?



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    #3808
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000920#Comment_122000920

    Not at all.

    Someone can make an allegation of dangerous driving against you, they may perceive your driving to be dangerous, that's subjective. It doesn't mean it is.

    Someone can claim after sex that it wasn't consensual. Maybe it wasn't, to them.

    There are plenty of crimes reported where there is no other evidence.

    As for filing it under a non crime hate incident, I have already stated that is currently the case in Ireland and Gardai already keep records of them.

    This legislation does not make it easier to make exaggerated claims, anymore then any other legislation, no matter what you say to the contrary



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    #3809
    BillyHasMates
    Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭BillyHasMates


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000601#Comment_122000601

    Very few people are ever prosecuted for making a false statement. To do so you would need evidence that a person was not telling the truth, direct evidence that would illustrate something in the statement was a lie. It's an extremely rare occurence and is only typically found in complex cases involving numerous witnesses.

    With this legislation it will be impossible to prosecute someone for making a false statement unless they have the stupidity to mention a tweet as the basis for their complaint which never existed, as an example. If they make a statement and in it they highlight a tweet / online post or whatever as the basis for their complaint, and they believe or perceive the content of the post to be an offence under this legislation, there is absolutely no way the Guards can prove that the complainant didn't believe or perceive it to constitute an offence, or lied to that affect. So no, prosecuting complainants for making false statement will not be a deterrent at all for vexatious complaints.

    I also am in no doubt that the sheer volume of complaints that will be made under this legislation will dwarf any and every other type of criminal offence that currently exists. Topics such as immigration and gender identity to name but two are already hotly discussed and dividing topics when it comes to discussions online and in the media and political spheres. The complaints are going to pour in if enacted as it stands.

    I also believe there will be very few prosecutions resulting as a percentage of the overall complaints. That will not be similar to other offences under other pieces of criminal legislation. Generally it is going to be a monumental waste of police time, and there is no deterrent for vexatious complaints.



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    #3810
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,590 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001983#Comment_122001983

    There will be a huge amount of complaints I'm sure in the first few months. Mostly because of the huge publicity the legislation has got.

    When there are very few prosecutions, the internet will die.



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    #3811
    BillyHasMates
    Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭BillyHasMates


    One way of looking at it all is that the police are pretty much being asked to moderate the internet. Posts will be reported by way of statement of evidence. People may get arrested or their properties searched upon receipt of said statement. The DPP will decide if the charter has been breached. If found guilty the user could be fined or jailed instead of thread / site banned. Users can report as many times as they like...…



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