Now it's official: "Ireland needs a new right wing party".

Libertarians basically want the maximum freedom with the minimum obligations, they are the very definition of the antisocial neighbour.

There's validity to what you say. "Left" and "right" are relative positions. Describing these terms relative you my (or your) own beliefs would be nonsense. We could describe them in relation to Irish politics, or in relation to politics in other countries. The point of the article that kicked off this thread is that some people feel there's a lack of options in Ireland for those who aren't left-leaning. To evaluate that assertion, a comparison to other countries makes more sense.

Imagine I was describing some party in some other country. Would you think this party is left- or right- leaning? I'm talking about what has been done since they came to power in 2011, not their historic reputation or what some of their traditional supporters would like.

I'm not saying any particular one of these things is wrong, but it's laughable to say they're the actions of a right-wing party.

• Being led for years (up to this week) by an openly gay multiracial leader.
• Maintained "the most progressive system of taxes and transfers of any OECD member" ( https://www.oecd.org/gov/gov-at-a-glance-2021-ireland.pdf )
• Increased public spending by almost 60% over the past 10 years ( https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/government-spending ), while consistently increasing government debt ( https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/3118/economics/ireland-national-debt /).
• Having a 50% marginal tax rate kicking in for very mediocre incomes.
• Managed the introduction of same-sex marriage, abortion, with a hate-speech law on the way.
• Refused to discuss any limit to the level of inward migration to the country and for years did not enforce deportations of people found to have arrived illegally. Only starting to discuss it now.

I'm sure there's more, but if we were describing some party in the UK, USA, Australia, Germany etc, where would you think this party lies on the spectrum?

There's loads

The issue is that everyone who tries to define what they want from a right wing party only ever has one thing in common which is "not the ones that are already there".

And yet when people are pushed to list what they want from a right or centre right party, they almost always list one absolutely bonkers thing that only the existing collection of far right parties would ever support (and in many cases is either unconstitutional or against international law)

Definitely agree with you on the first - they want as little State interference as possible, completely the opposite of hard right.

Liberals would be more in favour of increased taxation to pay for state funded public services, which is where I don't consider them liberal.

Fair enough, but then if you're going by the definition of classic liberal, then it might be a hint as to why there are no modern libertarians in the Dail.

More a case of non-intervention. They're happy to let women access healthcare - if the government deems it appropriate, so be it - they just don't want to have to pay for it.

There was a very good HBO series called "The Anarchists" which laid bare all the issues facing libertarianism (in the form of anarcho-capitalism). High point being when they had to stop one of their members selling cocaine at a convention, not because it was illegal - but because they'd already arranged exclusive selling rights with the Mexican mafia - and the rogue seller then going and murdering someone.

There will always be racists everywhere.

You asserted that there's an increase in racism of late. You offered no proof.

I've addressed the topic in other posts.

I was responding to you in the post you quoted above.

If you don't want to talk to me don't bother quoting me in future.

You sought me out on this thread, I didn't come looking for you. As usual you lead with condescending remarks and ridicule and pull away in horror when challenged on it.

Personally I would class Fine Gael as broadly neo-liberal - a right wing flavour of political thinking. They favour privatisation over state run institutions for example. But they aren't wound up about things like gay rights, which the more stupider elements of the right wing gets their knickers in a twist about.

Also, just because FG were in power when something like gay marriage came into effect or that Varadkar, himself, is gay, doesn't make them any less of a right wing entity. The may hover around the centre/centre right on a lot of issues, but they're certainly not left wing, that's for damn sure. It just means that they have slightly softened their previously rigid approach to things like the same-sex marriage issue, because they saw which way the wind was blowing and were wise enough to blow with it. The vast majority of people in Ireland today either don't care about same-sex marriage or are pro it, and to be against it means going against something that the electorate might not look to favourably on you for. Not a smart move for a political party looking to be, or remain, in power.

Also, something like immigration isn't a left wing issue, no matter how much those on the right wish it to be. Remember, the right wing love their cheap labour, because it's instrumental in driving down wages and employment conditions. Neo-liberal right wingers are especially wedded to the free flow of labour and such a position doesn't make one "left wing". And while those on the left would be broadly in favour of immigration/emigration, that's because they would see it as more of a human right than anything else. However, there are plenty of those who would consider themselves to be of the left that would also be concerned about how immigration is handled in practical terms.

The simple fact of the matter, however, is that in Ireland we have a very spread out centrist political reality. All of our main political parties, FF, FG, Lab and SF hover around it. In fact, much of European politics hovers around the centre ground. Political parties these days (in the main) can be, and usually are, quite fluid in their policies and will often test the waters before stating where they stand on a given issue. And they can change that stance if it becomes clear that it ceases to be a vote winner. Frankly, that's just realpolitik.

I'm asking where you think the popularity for an Irish right-wing party will come from in a thread about right-wing parties in Ireland - something you haven't responded to.

You seem to have interpreted this as "lead[ing] with condescending remarks and ridicule" for reasons I neither know nor care about at this point.

Now are you going to answer that, or complain about me, the left and the far right?

No link to where I said the Irish are racists?

I offered the proof in this part of my post:

'You may want to ignore the racism some Irish people have and pretend it's not there but in the real world, foreign nationals are getting abused, buildings for asylum seekers are being burnt down, some are stating they don't want any immigrants of a certain colour to be allowed into Ireland and some are calling Irish people of a different colour as not being from here.'

Perfect description .

That's not fair to people on the spectrum . Many have to learn how to be empathetic and it is no fault of theirs if they can't .

If what you mean is, that some libertarians may be on the spectrum , I still don't think it's right to link disabilities with negative traits.

They are just outward manifestations of the disability which should not be used to label people on either side.

And I perceive Libertarianism to be "selfish, I'm all right jack , spoilt , so and so s " , who were either brought up or educated to believe they owed nothing to society but just to themselves .

Of course that is one opinion and am sure there are people who justify that type of mentality and live it quite happily .

More basic but better that than associating them with people who have no choice but to be that way and will never be able to change because of their innate neuro divergence .

True Libertarians could change and would have the ability to learn / become more empathetic and caring but it doesn't suit them or their lifestyle to do that so they don't

Not getting at you btw your posts are excellent ,and interesting to read .

I'd pretty much agree with you on that, but it would have helped us both if you'd just posted it earlier!

I did. You latched onto another point I made and started taking the p1ss out of me.

Possibly, but if so it was before I joined the discussion.

People were on the wind up, that's why I raised the issue.

I was referring to politicians not posters.

I was accused of being an extremist, which seemingly is acceptable behaviour on boards.

OK Goldengirl. Have a nice evening.

I could possibly have put a bit more thought into my post, I concede.

To be clear, I don't like to think of being on the spectrum as "a disability". I think it's part of the normal distribution of human personality traits. Thus I don't see myself here as "linking disabilities with negative traits".

When I suggest libertarian politics is for people who are on the autistic spectrum but don't know it, I mean not only that they are deficient in empathy, but that they haven't noticed that they are deficient in empathy (and, therefore, they have never made the efforts to learn empathy, or even to understand it, that you mention). Since they do not understand that others do experience empathy, they are baffled and/or repelled by political positions rooted in empathy.

And this probably ties in with your sense that they are entitled; if somebody else has a political position that they cannot understand or whose attraction they cannot see, they assume that the fault must lie in that person or in their position; they do not consider that the fact they cannot see it may disclose something about them.

I am very far from saying that everyone who professes libertarian politics must be on the spectrum, or that everyone on the spectrum must profess libertarian politics; not at all. Just that liberarian politics may tend to attract people on the spectrum (but unaware/in denial) because the values that libertarianism discounts line up will with the deficits typically experienced by those on the spectrum. Libertarian politics will make a kind of sense to a person in this situation.

What does wokery mean?