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Landlord query

2»

Answers

  • #52
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    If the OP is to be taken at face value then there is no practical issue. Whether their son move in or not is irrelevant as regards the other tenants' rights. The OP can issue notice based on the fact they intend to sell. The only way the son living there might be relevant might be that it could mean that they might be a little less likely to overhold should they have been otherwise so inclined. But that is after the fact.

    It's entirely possible that the story is 100% true and it's also possible there are important bits left out. Regardless, people can only answer based on the details given.

    If the situation does get messy, and the OP tries to pull a fast one, well the other aspect would be (aside from tenants rights issues) would be whether they left themselves open to anything as regards not having things done by the book otherwise.

    Go to the solicitor if you want OP. No harm. But what are you saving when you have the fallback of just issuing the notice anyway due to you selling? Maybe go to them to get them to do that paperwork just in case


    As an aside, and out of curiosity, what would be the story with CGT for an investor who had their child living in a house? Presume that doesn't affect the investors liability to CGT (of that period) as it isn't their residence?



  • #53
    SharkMX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925712#Comment_121925712

    Well they could start by publishing a clear set of rules instead of making it up as they go along. If they could get that far then we can talk about how useless they are at everything else and how to improve that also.



  • #54
    Bio Mech
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,046 ✭✭✭Bio Mech


    Given the lack of clarity get the ball rolling ASAP and give him a valid written notice. Start the process of selling in parallel. Get your BER cert etc. As your Son has access it wont be an issue. Any other option is a risk. Youre entitled to evict if you are selling the house. Dont mention the word tenant on the notice to be safe but make sure its valid.



  • #55
    MacDanger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969037#Comment_121969037

    The rules around what constitutes a tenancy vs licence are laid out in legislation and are pretty clear for the most part.

    There's always going to be cases though which fall into a grey area (as there inevitably are with all laws) such as this one by the looks of it; simply blaming the RTB for being "useless" is fair enough in many cases (particularly around waiting times and registering tenancies) but expecting them to be able to give a cast iron answer in cases such as this is nonsense.



  • #56
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,353 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    There are RTB decisions to the effect that if all of the original occupants took individuals rooms separately, none of them is a tenant for the purposes of the RTB because a bedroom is not a dwelling.

    The fact that your son moved in has not changed that.

    The trouble is that the RTB has been inconsistent on this point over the years. Nobody can predict with 100% certainty what will happen in the event of a dispute.

    Most likely the occupants are not tenants, never were and can be removed without undue formality.



  • #57
    meijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭meijin


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975440#Comment_121975440

    As you are claiming that there are such decisions, could please share links to them?



  • #58
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,353 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976361#Comment_121976361

    The links are out of date by now. There are threads on this forum back years ago discussing it.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80995461



  • #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976361#Comment_121976361

    Like you I suspect, I struggle to see how that prevents a tenancy, as all tenants have sole use of their bedrooms, and even if the rooms were rented individually, all would have use of the common areas.



  • #60
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,353 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979006#Comment_121979006

    A bedroom is not a dwelling and the landlord retains access to the common areas so collectively the tenants do not have sole control of a dwelling.



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  • #61
    meijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭meijin


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978907#Comment_121978907

    and… how does it support your opinion? if you just scroll down a little lower in that thread:

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/81001979#Comment_81001979

    The other referenced case
    TR10/DR532 & 589/2006 Murphy v Flannery is relevant. However this Tribunal
    believes that the law is not correctly interpreted in the Murphy case for all the reasons
    stated in (a) to (c) above.



  • #62
    Hontou
    Registered Users Posts: 212 ✭✭Hontou


    It seems a bygone era to me where landlords owned houses that they themselves did not occupy and rented out rooms with no contracts / licensee agreements. (Often avoiding tax. I'm not saying this OP is doing this). From my understanding of the above, the occupants above are tenants and therefore should be given the correct notice to leave in view of the upcoming sale. As tenants, they have part 4 rights, with or without a contract. OP, with respect, I think you have been an irresponsible landlord. This does not mean you have been a bad landlord, but irresponsible. When and if you changed the rent, was this in writing? Did you inform the RTB of rent increases. Your tenants have rights and you have a responsibility to know their rights.



  • #63
    saggy
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭saggy


    I never changed the rent, their rent has stayed the same price since they moved in, so I therefore don’t need to notify RTB.



  • #64
    Hontou
    Registered Users Posts: 212 ✭✭Hontou


    By not charging market rent, you create a situation which makes it very difficult for your tenant to move to another property and therefore find yourself in a situation where you will now need to deal with the RTB. Good luck.



  • #65
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,353 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980478#Comment_121980478

    The finding was that the tenant was to use one bedroom and share with whoever was in the second bedroom. If the person in the other room was the landlord or a member of the tenants family the result might have been different.

    https://www.courts.ie/acc/alfresco/394c885e-5147-40ad-98de-a4619618004e/2014_IEHC_554_1.pdf/pdf#view=fitH

    These cases have tended to =flip flop and turn on very minor points.



  • #66
    saggy
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭saggy


    Thanks Guys for all your comments,

    Since then one of the guys has moved out but unfortunately the other one, who did say he intends on staying no matter what is still there.

    I am going to let out one of the empty rooms short term as whoever will be move in now will be licensee from the start ,as my son will continue to stay in the other room.

    I will issue notice to the guy that’s there, I don’t think he will hang around too long with my son and his friends calling around all the time partying.



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  • #67
    LauraleeX
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭LauraleeX


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058342908/landlord-query

    It's only 150 euros to join the IPOA and they'll give you the best advice. I doubt your tenants qualify as licencees. Best to sign up to the IPOA and get as much 'free advice' as you can on how to proceed legally



  • #68
    saggy
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭saggy


    I am a member of the IPOA and unfortunately they did not know the answer either.



  • #69
    meijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭meijin


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122011785#Comment_122011785

    And still, you intend to breach your tenant's right "to enjoy peaceful and exclusive occupation".

    Hopefully, he gets a huge compensation in RTB for this!



  • #70
    combat14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭combat14


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929595#Comment_121929595

    has the landlord been living in the house the entire time as their primary residence ? then they are licensees otherwise probably tenants ...

    from treshold:

    "Licensees are those who are renting a room from an existing tenant of a property. In these cases, normal landlord and tenant laws do not apply and the licensee is left very vulnerable with little to no protections legally in place."

    it doesnt look as if the OP is an existing tenant (his son might be which is completely different)

    valid notice to evict ( i.e. with formal documentation with correct notice date and statutory declaration to sell delivered to tenants by registered post or by hand and copied to RTB at same time ) is very important or else it resets the eviction clock to new date as per the law - there can be serious fines/penalties/ delays if not done properly

    as for deliberate house parties from "son's friends in the house" you wont have a leg to stand on if that's the case

    Post edited by combat14 on


  • #71
    ballyharpat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122013376#Comment_122013376

    if the tenant was renting on a room only basis, and there was no lease- there was no exclusivity, also there is no guarantee that the other tenants are going to be adhering to peaceful occupation, and the landlord does not have to enforce this.

    I have tenants in a house, it's far from peaceful, but they pay the rent and keep the house well, they work strange hours and play loud music at times, but I've told them to keep it down after 11pm, it's not peaceful though.



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