Restricted shotgun on wrong liscense,court case

Grizzly 45 · 14-04-2024 3:51pm #1

Concerning the policies of not commenting on court cases this one is finished,and I think there is a lot to be learned here from this incident as there is a lot wrong on both the Defendants side and the AGS. Maybe there is more to this story and probably is in the lead-up events,so we can only judge from this article It's paywalled on the Irish Independent [article Dublin security gaurd fined for unlicensed shotgun] but easily found on pressreader.com https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/dublin-security-guard-did-not-have-the-proper-licence-for-shotgun/a1023634800.html

Points I'd take away from this are;

1]Be present when these inspections happen, it could save you a lot of money and loss of your licenses.

[2] What were the Garda's offical qualifications to judge the mag capacity of the gun,and to handle it? Were they firearms qualified on shotguns by ballistics or...? Dont think AGs use Mossberg 500 pump shotguns.

[3] Why were they using "snap caps" to check the magazine capacity? You could put 10 snap caps in a shotgun mag as they are only about an inch long. They should have used dummy shotgun rounds to check this properly. If properly firearms qualified they would/should have known this.

[4] Why were they doing this inspection when the license holder was not present?

[5]Why did a 3rd party give over the key? Even with the owners say so,it should be considered a major security faux pas, unless this other person was licensed on the gun. In the UK it's enough to lose your license as the UK police consider this a security breach.As now an unauthorised person knows where the keys are kept or has access to the firearm.

[7] No magazine restrictors don't "fall out" unless you deliberately take the gun apart to clean it and "forget "to put it back in.

OR in maybe the defendant's defence, they might never have had one in the first place and not being aware of such needed by law never put one in?

[8] Their lawyer should study Irish firearms law a bit better as there were holes she could have driven a coach and four in this entire case.

[9] Don't be surprised if we who own such shotguns get another round of FOs coming around looking to catch more unblocked shotguns,as happened a few months ago with the lad with the 10-shot .22 pistol magazine.

tonysopprano · 14-04-2024 7:59pm

Report says he was licenced for a restricted shotgun and was convicted for having a shotgun that holds more than 3 rounds, which is a restricted firearm. If the report is correct, the PTB (gardai, judge and both counsels) and the reporter, have not got a clue, or is it just more manipulation of the story and disinformation to suit a narrative

JP22 · 14-04-2024 9:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019724#Comment_122019724

……. "or is it just more manipulation of the story and disinformation to suit a narrative"

Possibly, I hope not, I think it’s just ignorance on behalf of some of those supposedly in the know and of course the reporters covering the stories.

Reports are just that, reports, do them up and go to print as they say with little checking/research of the facts, most media reports are inaccurate when it comes to reporting on firearms issues, and don’t forget paper just loves ink.

If I had a pound for every report I read over the years about someone being caught with a pistol/revolver/firearm with x amount of bullets, I’d be a rich man.

Most people just don’t have a clue and most don’t care. Those of us who have an interest in/knowledge of/experience of/holder of firearm’(s) know a bullet is just a lump of inert lead/metal/alloy and in themselves are totally harmless and useless.

Every now and then, the odd reporter will use the correct terminology of “rounds of ammunition” or “ammunition”.

That’s today's rant…..

TheEngineer1 · 14-04-2024 10:49pm

I think the author used the phrase "restricted shotgun" in the sense that the magazine was supposed to restricted to 3 rounds/ 2+1 as opposed to referring to a restricted shotgun in the legislative sense.

Mellor · 15-04-2024 1:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019724#Comment_122019724

The author has fumbled the wording. But what they said is correct in plain english, but not in the nomenclature of the SI.

Glen Kendellan (41) applied for, and was granted, a firearms licence for a restricted gun, but when gardaí inspected the weapon, they discovered that the restrictor, or plug, was missing.

The restricted gun in that case is not a restricted firearm as defined by the SI, but a firearm that has been restricted to incapable of containing more than 3 cartridges. It's understandable to think the firearm that has been restricted, is the restricted firearm. And that an unrestricted license is the broader coverage. I never thought about it before ,that that way around makes more sense

Mellor · 15-04-2024 1:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058346895/restricted-shotgun-on-wrong-liscense-court-case

Some interesting points @Grizzly 45. I like to read a more details summary, but based only on the article;

[1] Agree. Always be present. Somebody else cannot have you key or hand it over. I don't think it would have saved the license here.

[2] I would assume it was a standard FO and not a ballistics expert. But there is not need to need for them to be a ballistics expert. It's a field exam. All that they need is a suspicion that it has a capacity >3. Then it gets sent to ballistics, as happened here.

[3] I've no idea what model of snap cap they use. But I would assume that they are full cartridge length, otherwise there would be false fails everywhere. A mossberg 500 is >3 capacity.

[4] Foolishness on behalf of the owner. Might not have changed anything, but that's not the point

[5] agree. That alone is technically a breech of the terms of a firearm is supposed to be secured to.

[7] Agreed. It didn't fall out. It was removed or was never there seems like the only plausible explanation.

[8] as the case is over, could you provide more details? might help others in future.

[9] Yup. Will serves as a reminder for the inspectors to check the details and not just a glance.

Grizzly 45 · 15-04-2024 8:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122020428#Comment_122020428

Course we would do it bass ackwards in Ireland just to confuse the issue and terminology when it comes to firearms,

Grizzly 45 · 15-04-2024 8:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122020801#Comment_122020801

2&3] That's a thing. Does even a FO have a basics of firearm instruction? If they did they would not in this case refer to "snap caps" for dummy rounds.Its a chalk& cheese difference in use. Dummy rounds are for practice of loading, unloading and checking the guns function.A snap cap OTOH is just a spring that catches the firing pin so it isnt striking on nothing to prevent damage and to relax the hammer mainsprings. For S&G I pulled out mine and a dummy shotgun round is 6 cms as per a normal shotgun round, and a snap cap is 3 cm in my case or version. Indeed there care dummy rounds with a "snap cap " function for dry firing,and maybe the aGS refered to them as snap caps.But in the field of firearms as we all know where precise terminology and legalese and tolerances are a thing…It would have behoved the counsel to have asked for them to be provided as evidence to back up the AGS claim. From what I understand of AGS procedure with firearms is that a normal Garda CANNOT handle any type of firearm be it civilian or issued unless they have had and carry the AGS firearms qualification ticket. How being checked out on a SIG and the other guns that have to be individually ticked on the boxes makes you an expert on civvie firearms beats me,as my Div FO who had duty carried for a few years was scratching her head in the intricacies of converting a semi-auto to straight pull bolt action shows…But we digress.

8]"Fraid that's the only details out there from this report that I could find.

Mellor · 16-04-2024 4:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023941#Comment_122023941

I agree that dummy round is the most accurate. They are not test firing the pins or using any function of the snap cap. But snap caps the size of full/dummy rounds are not uncommon. Most likely the package says snap caps it, so it's become the name that FO knew them as. Ultimately that's semantics has no legal bearing. It was just the field test. It failed and was sent to ballistics who confirmed there was no plug.
The FO's are not firearms experts, some not trained at all afaik. But I don't think they give evidence as firearms experts in court either. There are other "experts" for that. (using the term expert loosely).

At the end of the day, it appears the firearm was an unplugged a Mossberg 500. I not across the the possible models, but I think all are restricted in unplugged.

I definitely would have objected to somebody handling my firearm when I was not present and charging me bases on the condition it was in. There's a break in the custody there. But I also don't let anyone have my keys.

Whatwicklow · 16-04-2024 6:24am

On point 8, 'they dont fall out' I bought a moss 500 maybe 12/13 years ago from a RFD in Dublin that had a pencil in the tube to restrict it to 2+1, and yes, it would routinely fall out.

Grizzly 45 · 16-04-2024 1:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024789#Comment_122024789

Re the Mossbergs, I've owned three of them in my life one here, and one in Germany and in the US. They all came with restricted mag capacity out of the box, or gun dealer in the Irish one, and that was 30-odd years ago. One of them was the 8shot model in the US.So it's safe to ASSume that they come from New Haven with some kind of restriction.

Yeah,it is kind of scary that we have people who are unqualified or in the bare minimum of training presenting information on a very technical subject for decisions to higher-ups for their blessing. Or being sent out to do jobs like these,and on one interesting and critical point not mentioned in this report is, did the Gardai check the safety status of the gun?A kind of important point I would expect my defence or the Garda in question to make clear in this case.it obviously wasn't loaded in this case. But it just shows the difference in firearms handling or training between AGS and European police agencies, where most reports on firearms issues have the following sentences/actions. "Having secured/acquired the "weapon" I assured myself that it was in a safe condition and unloaded". Just saying…

Grizzly 45 · 16-04-2024 1:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024808#Comment_122024808

But still 100% legal so long as you put it back in!What a cheapskate gun dealer,he wouldnt invest in a bit of dowel or even a cut metal rod which when put in is no different from the factory-issued "chopstick" diameter plug.Which don't fall out and take a good bit of fiddling to get out the top of the drilled magazine tube hole.

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Restricted shotgun on wrong liscense,court case

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