What is a woman? **Mod Note In Post #294**

Condescending reply.

If you have to transition into a sex then you are not that sex.

I’m watching the Masters and feel like a professional golfer so today I am identifying as a professional golfer, anyone disagrees will be cancelled. I’m taking golf lessons to help me transition. .

Chill out with your pronouncements mate.

I never said that. You are making things up now. Just leave it out. Enjoy your day.

Transphobia and homophobia aren't the same thing. But what ever you are into yourself.

This is not even true for mammals: young female cats and dogs often end up pregnant earlier than they are physically or mentally able to cope. Seems weird saying it like that, but a bitch who is too young will often fail to care for her pups properly, and her body also suffer from early pregnancies.

So having sexual capacity to just get pregnant, or indeed to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth, is not really "adulthood". And that's only among cats and dogs. It's even more the case in human society, where raising the resulting children to adulthood successfully is FAR more complex again.

We're not talking about male vs female or biological sex, we're talking about gender

Shes a man pretending or who thinks she is a women, She is NOT a women ,I'm not sure when telling the truth became WRONG or offensive, Her life choices are her own and all power to her as long as she isn't hurting anyojne ,

There's is massive hint on the first 5 words you typed ye see a real women is someone who doesn't have to put Trans infront of the women part,

Really? And science has developed techniques for transition gender - but hey, what do scientists know…

Biological sex, but yeah - pretty much. That's my take on it anyway.

Science, though, has developed procedures for transition.

Not sure if the question is for me personally, or Science. I'm just quoting the scientific stance.

Well, take that up with scientists and tell them you know more than they do. Let me know how you get on

Like Professor Robert Winston for example?

I said science - as in a body of people who have conducted research from a neutral standpoint.

Not one person with an opinion. (On a completely different topic, btw - were not talking about surgery)

Science like the Cass report??

What scientific tests are there to determine someone’s gender? How do I find out what gender I am, for example??

He wasn't asked what a woman is, but when he created the world's first test tube baby, he clearly had no problem identifying the sex that carries babies to birth and the one that just provides the sperm.

It makes you look silly trying to claim that he's just another person with an opinion.

Specially when you haven't managed to name any of these scientists you appear to think would say he was wrong.

And if you'd watched the clip or even read the headline I linked to you'd know what his opinion was: it's that we are born male or female, ie that our sex is observed not assigned, and that we cannot change that sex no matter what mutilating surgery is carried out on our bodies. ("Mutilating" was his word, not mine, before you get annoyed).

Haven't read it, don't know. I asked you what science says about transitioning gender, you never replied - what does the Cass report say about transitioning gender?

"He wasn't asked what a woman is…." - and therin lies the irrelevance.

The problem here is an "appeal to authority": you don't say HOW his point contradicts mine, and it actually doesn't.

Dr. Robert Winston also said in an interview with Piers Morgan that you CAN change gender but you can't change biological sex (something I'd agree with - apologies if I was unclear).

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=413574834126288 (about the 2.00 mark)

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You guys are both making a case against specifically surgical transitioning and therin lies the block: surgery does not have to be involved for transition. Scientifically or legally. I honestly don't know enough about the surgical process to comment about it.

I think we're going off on another tangent here!

My point is: transitioning gender is scientifically possible.

My question is: are you sure the Cass report contradicts this?

Plenty of people believe that the flat is Earth or that there's a magical invisible man in the sky that we need to worship, but of course, that's not nonsense - is it?

Again, science is founded by physics, experiments and research; not democratic majorities :)

You sure you’re not mixing up Robert Winston with Robert Edwards?

He wasn't asked what a woman is, but when he created the world's first test tube baby, he clearly had no problem identifying the sex that carries babies to birth and the one that just provides the sperm.

Just on that…

On 10 November 1977, Lesley Brown underwent a procedure, later to become known as in vitro fertilisation(IVF), developed by Patrick Steptoe, Robert Edwards, and Jean Purdy. Purdy was the first to see her embryonic cells dividing. Edwards, as the only surviving partner, was awarded the 2010 Nobel Prize in Medicine for this work. In March 2022, a plaque was installed on Royal Oldham Hospital to record the importance of Sister Muriel Harris and Jean Purdy to the work. Although the media referred to Brown as a "test tube baby", her conception actually took place in a Petri dish.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Brown

Although Ms Purdy developed processes that are still part of IVF treatments today, her role was largely forgotten in the IVF story and the Nobel Prize committee.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-07-25/first-ivf-baby-louise-joy-brown-turns-40/10017032

The science of reproductive medicine has moved well beyond Winston’s understanding. Winston is no more than a decrepit old fart in terms of what modern science and medicine is discovering in the area of human fertility.

Ok, but how does that affect the conversation.

If you meet someone who looks like she might be a mammy. She may even have adopted a child, she adopts the outward appearance of a woman, refers to herself as a woman, is a mother to a child, acts and behaves in a way typically associated with women in her culture, but secretly has a penis.

What actual difference does that make to anyone. Do you go around wondering about the genitals of every mother you meet on the street? If you found out that this person had a penis through some kind of 'outing' against her will, would you insist on treating her differently, as a man? Why would you do that? what benefit would it give to you or to her? or the child she is mothering?

On the other hand, if a trans person had a child as a young woman, maybe she was married young a few decades ago when it was extremely common for women to hide their sexual identity and just go along with the assigned gender roles.

Later on, that person decides that they have never been comfortable as a woman and has always wanted to be identified as a man, goes through the social transition and is now outwardly identifiable as a man. Their child accepts the transition and everyone they know refers to them as a man. If you were to find out that person had been born female and had a child several decades earlier when they had no socially acceptable way for them to live the life they really wanted. Would you insist on calling that person a woman?

Its all well and good having anonymous opinions on the internet about the philosophical basis for taxonomical categorisation of people into categories that you have always felt you understood, but these are real situations that real people find themselves in, in their real lives. And if you would be happy to go up to an actual person and deliberately offend them to their face by calling them the name or gender that they explicitly and obviously do not want to be referred by, then you need to ask what are your actual objectives here, and are you acting like the person you want to be.