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Retaining wall issue missed by surveyor

  • 22-04-2024 2:44pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 15


    We purchased a house back in November, prior to that we had a full survey completed on said house. In the survey the surveyor mentioned that the boundary walls were in good condition except for a few minor cracks. About a month ago when I started into tidying up the garden I noticed that the boundary wall on the left at the back of the house which is a retaining wall is significantly leaning outwards. A builder came to have a look and said that to rectify it the wall would have to be knocked and it would cost about €50K….. Having spoken to the council who own the land the other side they have said that it would be my complete responsibility to correct the issue and there engineer estimated it could cost me anywhere between 50-100K to resolve. All that said, this really feels like it should of been highlighted by my surveyor, do I have recourse to claim the costs of their insurance? Has anyone ever had to claim off a surveyor for not picking up a significant defect?



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,770 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Well the council would say that!

    What's the ground level difference giving rise to the retaining wall, from what you say I suspect you are higher and leaning into the council land.

    Post a few pictures.

    WAs the wall disguised by vegetation, bearing in mind the surveyor will have pictures.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,327 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Is it your wall or the councils?

    Contact them and tell them they have a dangerous wall that could fall into your garden.

    You'll probably end up at 50:50, which is better than where you are now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 701 ✭✭✭danoriordan1402


    I presume the wall is 100% your property , pictures would be good and an idea of the make up of the wall and its lenght



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,890 ✭✭✭Alkers


    The best outcome from the surveyor would be the cost of your report refunded.

    You need a structural engineers opinion on the current condition of the wall, whether it presents any danger, the remediation actions possible for the wall and high level costs of same.

    Then you need to clarify ownership of the wall.

    Then if it's your problem, you get quotes for the works as set out by the engineer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 orcahardking


    Yes my property is on higher ground and it is leaning in towards the councils land, which is a green space used by the public. Some of the wall had Ivy on it but there was plenty of the wall still visible for the surveyor to see the issue. The wall is about 12ft high on their side and 6ft on my side. There is a lot of Ivy on the council side of the wall and some large tress in close proximity. The council say the wall is 100% mine, but I am working with my solicitor to see if that is definitely the case.

    I'm confused by this "The best outcome from the surveyor would be the cost of your report refunded." - I thought registered surveyors had to have indemnity insurance for cases like this, if they had highlighted this issue we would of either walked away from the house or reduced the amount we were prepared to pay to factor in these repair works.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,104 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    You had a pre purchase visual survey done. Doesn’t sound like a structural survey was carried out?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 orcahardking


    It was a full house survey and was to include "The inspection will include boundaries, grounds and
    outbuildings."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,463 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Yes but a boundary survey is merely to check if the boundaries are in the correct position (i.e. correlating with legal mapping) and not necessarily a report on the structural stability of same.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 orcahardking


    The report specifically said it was not the legal mapping of the boundaries and it did go on to mention the boundary wall was in good condition except for a few small cracks, which clearly was not the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    How much is it leaning? Unless the wall is in bits it can likely be fixed.

    How long is it as well? Throw up a few pics if you can.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Dr Turk Turkelton


    While it might be your wall if it's leaning away from your property it's not really going to cause you any problems.

    Let the council fix it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,576 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    Sounds like you got charged professional fees for an unprofessional job and you have the paperwork to prove it. If the surveyor doesn't have insurance maybe there is a way to claim from the society of surveyors presuming he is a member.

    If he's not a member then suing him personally might be an option, I'm sure your solicitor will be happy to advise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 orcahardking


    Thanks all will see what my solicitor has to say tomorrow. The council said if they end up fixing they would charge it to me and take me to court for the costs if I didn’t pay. Hoping a structural engineer will have a creative way of stabilising without a complete rebuild.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,770 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Some of the wall had Ivy on it but there was plenty of the wall still visible for the surveyor to see the issue.

    That is 100% subjective on your part so I wouldn't be going in to bat on that assertion.

    As requested earlier post some pictures.

    It could be argued [the ivy on the council side is pulling it over…. or the roots from the trees are undermining it …]

    Lets get a sense of the Leaning tower

    drop a plumb line : yellow, from red stick down to bottom of wall and measure the orange back to face of wall

    tilt is orange minus (red minus wall thickness )

    Post edited by Calahonda52 on

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭SOPHIE THE DOG


    Orange minus (Red minus wall thickness surely)?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    If the council land is accessed by the public and some part of the wall falls and injures someone, this might be a serious liability for the householder. You'd hope that the council fences it off someway to stop the public from walking below or climbing on it.

    I'd be getting solicitor to look into the history of it and ask any neighbours too. Why is there this difference in height between both sides, who built the retaining wall. This as normally understood would be to retain the soil and stop it falling down into the lower side. Maybe the OPs garden was built up and the builder put this in when raising the boundary wall. Could be several factors.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,785 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Kids are playing in the park. Wall collaspes. Seriously injures some kids, a dogwalker etc.
    Locals in uproar. Pitchfork the council. Who point of that it's not their property, they legally can't touch it, OP new it was dangerous and did nothing.

    A extreme obviously, but saying it can't cause the OP problems is simply incorrect.

    Maybe they should have mentioned it. Maybe it was outside the remit of the survey. Can't say without reading the survey. There should be some clear scope and exclusions at the start of the report.

    Whatever the survey scope. It was very unlikely to be a full survey. A full survey would be a structural survey, condition report, boundary mapping and a measure up and drawing of the site and property. It's a expense and people simply don'd do them pre sale.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 orcahardking


    I do not plan on just leaving it and not addressing the problem as like you said I would be liable if it did cause someone an injury. That said could someone recommend a good structural engineer in the Galway city area who would do a survey of the wall and draw up a proposal for rectifying the situation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,770 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Can you give us some idea of the tilt, the other point is can you fix glass tell tales to see if it is still moving? and what length we are talking about.

    Are there any drainage holes down along the bottom?

    Is it block or mass concrete?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 orcahardking


    The builder did a rough measure and said the tilt was 8inches from top to bottom. I cannot get in near the other side to measure myself as it’s all briars and brambles on the councils side. The length of the wall is 20/25m. The walls appears to be just block with no concrete at the bottom but again you’d need to clear the council side to really see what is going on.
    there are no drainage holes viable.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15 orcahardking


    this is the wall although you really can’t see much from the photos.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Clearly drains in your paved patio area at base of walls. Where do these drain to?

    Hard to see clearly but looks like blocks laid on the flat on lower part of wall for strength and then normally above the ground level. Is the lean consistent over full height of wall? Possible that the lower blockwork is OK.

    History of who built what worth pursuing. Did the LA build any part of this wall? At a guess and no more than that, they didn't and the house builder erected when developing the site.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,099 ✭✭✭standardg60


    I'd be throwing that back to the council, that tree could easily have undermined the wall and they've failed to maintain it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 orcahardking


    The lean is worst near the tree and ivy. I can’t find who built the wall as the previous owner says it wasn’t him… although i’m not totally convinced. The drains in the paving don’t appear to go anywhere… I can’t see any openings through the wall unless they are down further under the briars.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,854 ✭✭✭Hooked


    Stumbled across this on the main page.

    Can't shed any light only to say… 50-100 grand? WHAT ARE PEOPLE SMOKING!!!!

    Or is the wall 4 miles long?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,785 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Do you understand what a retaining wall is? And what rebuilding it would mean?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,854 ✭✭✭Hooked




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Deeec


    I too find it hard to believe that rebuilding that wall would cost €50K-€100K.

    I know my dad and brother built similar recently and it came to a few grand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,770 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    https://www.kdsconstruction.co.uk/significance-of-retaining-walls/

    So Hooked, lets have some numbers on yourcostings, given the site conditions which we know SFA about.

    we know SFA about access, council unlikely to allow a 15 ton digger in there?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭lmk123


    tell them to put in a price of €40k and they’ll make a killing on it. Blocks are €1 each and concrete is over €150/m3 depending where you are. Block layers are making €2/ block and maybe more depending on location, 14t excavator is around €60/hr, what retaining wall will be built for a few grand 😂🤦‍♂️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,785 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    just checking, as many wouldn’t have a clue.

    In that case, what are the major tasks and the cost you’d think they should be?

    $100k is a sky high estimate. But “a few grand”, that’s also miles off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Deeec


    They're not even builders - they were still able to build the wall themselves and they done a really good job.

    If anyone pays €20K let alone €100K for that wall to be built they need to consider themselves really really stupid 🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,148 ✭✭✭Smee_Again




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,305 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    or if its meant to be a retaining wall, id bet there was no actual structural design input and was a case of 'ah sure itll be grand'

    which wouldnt surprise me if it were the case with the OPs wall too to be honest



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Deeec


    It was a retaining wall and it was a bigger area than the OP's job. Admittingly they were not paying themselves for the their time or labour just materials. They genuinely done a good job and didnt find it too much of a hassle. They do have a good general level of construction and engineering cop on though despite not working in the industry. My fathers in his 80's and in good fettle - he still would tackle most construction jobs on the farm rather than get some chancer to do it.

    I dread to think what it would have cost if they got someone else to do it - even with so called highly paid 'skilled builders' the job can even end up being poor.

    Im just highlighting that some jobs that are quoted high by builders dont warrant the high price at all. Also its not the kind of work most good builders would be interested in doing - the OP will find it hard to get someone to do it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,148 ✭✭✭Smee_Again




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,770 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    31 posts in and we are already in the BS arena, just like the Baltimore bridge disaster, every TD&H suddenly became Phds in bridge design, where the Phd stands for piled higher and deeper

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,183 ✭✭✭T-Maxx


    ...



  • Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭Dr. Greenthumb


    Been a while since I worked in Ireland but based on the dimensions the OP gives I'll give it a shot. 5.4m high (18') x 23m long = 124m2.

    Block on flat; 124 m2 x E60 / m2 = E7,440

    Demo and disposal E5,000

    Engineering E3k

    Allowance for earthwork E5,000

    Plaster & paint (1 side) E1,500

    Contingency at 25% E5,500

    Rough cost of E27,500 based on getting outside contractors with minimal risk built in as I'm assuming OP isn't doing it himself. Risks are that it undermines your back yard when you take it out and based on the proximity to your house that could be an issue. I'd imagine to prevent significant ground movement you should piecemeal it and take a build as you remove which would increase the demo cost as now it is drawn out rather than done in one go. Given that you said the retaining portion is 12', from a safety perspective it would probably require dirt removed on your side so people are not working under an unsupported 12' earth bank. If you take all that risk into it, which you will be pushing on to the contractor, the slower work, the safety measures needed, to get a contractor I don't think you'll have too much change out of 50k for a proper job.

    I would look at another option, 8" top to bottom over the height of the wall isn't huge. I would speak to the council and see if you could get access to that side and build some buttresses. You could support the wall temporarily while you dig the foundations etc. and the buttresses would then stop any further movement. You'd still need some engineering input but risk and cost would be significantly reduced with way less hassle to you. Trees may need to be removed but as another poster mentioned these maybe a part of the problem in the first place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭lmk123


    Ah yes the usual BS, but did you not see that his father and brother who are not builders could do it for a fraction of the cost. I’m sure when they’d be half way through the job and the wall and backyard collapses into the council land they’d fix that for a few hundred quid.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 358 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    the prices you are being quoted are probably for a mass concrete wall, which probably would have been a better engineering solution from day 1. Seems to me six foot of ground behind a block wall was always a bit light. Also the persistent rain over time is not a help. Given where you are now, I agree a buttress solution could be an option.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,785 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Built an retaining wall over 25m long with a greater level difference than the OP? Without a builder or engineering. You'd need to get through a very wet winter before you can call it a success. You've no idea whether it will stand up yet.

    A bit ingenious to compare materials only to the OP would needs to get a contractor in. It's not use labour, it's the design, certification, and insurance that goes with. All of which is missing in the self build scenario.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,785 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    That's a decent estimate. Prob need to allow more than 18ft as you have to add for the subground portion on the low side. Could be builders margin on top, structural certification, etc. A big factor is the garden as you identified. Removing the unsupported bank will knock out half the paving and the planting beds. Adding those costs are starting to get up there.



  • Subscribers Posts: 42,004 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Also not a very intelligent place to construct a raised planter bed



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 orcahardking


    There isn’t a raised planter bed. The flowers are at ground level, the patio is raised to the house level though.
    Thanks all for the info, I’m currently in the process of finding a structural engineer to design the solution which I then need to share with the council!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,854 ✭✭✭Hooked


    Thanks for saving me the hassle… 100 grand. Jokers.



  • Subscribers Posts: 42,004 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    It's possible that, at only 8" over an 18' drop, that a simply buttress on the councils side will suffice



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Reading this from @orchardking

    "The wall is about 12ft high on their side and 6ft on my side"

    Wall is 12 ft high. Lower 6ft is retaining wall, top 6ft. is op's garden wall.

    6ft. high buttresses, get Council engineer involved .

    Edit,

    Looks like your surface water drains down inside the retaining wall, that would not help the situation ,

    Post edited by chooseusername on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,183 ✭✭✭T-Maxx


    OP are there any signs of movement or settlement in your garden? Subsidence, cracks, etc?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 orcahardking


    There’s a definite slope to the paving and the wall has separated from the small wall. No idea if it’s new movement or old so will have to see what engineer says.



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