Contracts & Total Salaries - Irish Rugby

25-04-2024 11:50am #1

This is following on from a post on the Leinster thread, but thought it would be interesting to roll it out across the 4 provinces.

This has been a heavily debated and speculated topic on numerous message boards, twitter and in the wider media on podcasts etc recently.

I've tried to backsolve this to a degree, by estimating salary ranges and then bucketing players together.

I have 6 Tiers that I've grouped players into, as follows:

Tier 1 - Centrally Contracted Players (all on min €500k, some on higher (Porter, Furlong) - 14 players at present

Tier 2 - Other Very Highly Paid (Top Tier NIQs, Established Irish internationals not on CCs) - salaries €300k - €500k - 7 players

Tier 3 - Regular International Call Ups and Expensive NIQs - all on c. €250k - 14 players

Tier 4 - Regular Provincial Starter & Important Player - all on €200k - 28 players

Tier 5 - Breakthrough Players - all on €120k - €150k - 49 players

Tier 6 - First Contract or Squad Fillers - all on €60k or €90k - 63 players

The total sample is the 175 contracted players across the 4 provinces, Academy not included.

The composition of the buckets will be debated, but this is how I've broken them down:

Tier 1: Sheehan (€500k), Furlong (€650k), Porter (€600k), Doris (€500k), Ja Ryan (€500k), van der Flier (€500k), Keenan (€500k), Ringrose (€500k), Henshaw (€500k), Beirne (€500k), O'Mahony (€500k), Murray (€500k), Henderson (€500k), Aki (€500k). Total: €7.25m

Tier 2: Lowe (€300k), Conan (€300k), Gibson Park (€300k), Kitshoff (€450k), Snyman (€500k), McCloskey (€300k), Carbery (€300k) Total: €2.45m

Tier 3: (all on €250k) Kelleher, Ala'alatoa, Ngatai, R Byrne, Herring, Stockdale, Hansen, Bealham, Cordero, Jager, Kilcoyne, Jo Ryan, Kleyn, Casey. Total: €3.5m

Tier 4: (all on €200k) Healy, Baird, Jenkins, Molony, Deegan, Connors, McGrath, Ruddock, Frawley, Larmour, J O'Brien, M Moore, O'Toole, Treadwell, Ewers, Timoney, Cooney, Burns, Hume, N Scannell, Archer, Loughman, G Coombes, O'Donoghue, Nankivell, Haley, Zebo, Carty - Total: €5.6m

Tier 5: E Byrne (€120k), J McCarthy (€150k), Penny (€150k), H Byrne (€150k), Osborne (€150k), E O'Sullivan (€120k), Warwick (€120k), A O'Connor (€150k), Mat Rea (€120k), Doak (€150k), Marshall (€150k), S Moore (€120k), Baloucoune (€150k), Addison (€150k), Lowry (€150k), McIlroy (€120k), Barron (€120k), Salanoa (€120k), F Wycherley (€150k), Hodnett (€150k), Kendellen (€120k), Crowley (€150k), Frisch (€120k), S O'Brien (€150k), R Scannell (€150k), S Daly (€150k), Nash (€150k), Heffernan (€150k), Aungier (€150k), Buckley (€150k), Dooley (€120k), Dowling (€120k), Joyce (€150k), Thornbury (€150k), N Murray (€150k), Boyle (€150k), J Butler (€150k), C Prendergast (€150k), Blade (€150k), Hanrahan (€150k), Hawkshaw (€120k), T Daly (€150k), T Farrell (€150k), Porch (€120k), O'Halloran (€150k), Hurley Langton (€120k), Jansen (€120k), Oliver (€150k), Ahern (€120k). Total: €6.84m

Tier 6: J McKee (€60k), Barron (€60k), Clarkson (€90k), Milne (€90k), Deeny (€60k), Moloney (€60k), Soroka (€60k), Foley (€60k), S Prendergast (€90k), Turner (€90k), T O'Brien (€90k), Russell (€90k), Andrew (€90k), Stewart (€90k), McCormick (€60k), French (€60k), Griffin (€60k), Reid (€90k), Izuchukwu (€90k), Sheridan (€90k), Crothers (€60k), Jones (€60k), McCann (€90k), Mar Rea (€90k), Reffell (€90k), C McKee (€60k), Shanahan (€90k), Flannery (€90k), Carson (€60k), Moxham (€60k), Postlethwaite (€60k), Sexton (€60k), S O'Brien (€60k), Hogan (€60k), Campbell (€60k), L Coombes (€90k), Patterson (€90k), N Cronin (€60k), J O'Sullivan (€90k), J Daly (€90k), Hurley (€60k), J Wycherley (€90k), S Buckley (90k), E Clarke (€60k), O McNulty (€60k), A Smith (€90k), Ralston (€90k), Bolton (€90k), Kilgallen (€90k), Forde (€60k), Jennings (€60k), McDonald (€60k), Reilly (€60k), O McCormack (€60k), S O'Brien (€90k), D Murray (€90k), Duggan (€90k), Illo (€90k), Burke (€60k), McElroy (€90k), Tierney Martin (€90k), de Buitlear (€60k), Robertson McCoy (€90k). Total: €4.8m

That gives a total spend across the 6 tiers of €30.44m. If you tack on the 69 Academy players across the four provinces at the estimated €8k each p.a. that's another €552k.

The unknown elements then are the bonuses for international success etc, or match fees for the non-centrally contracted players etc, plus the costs of running the 7s games and the Womens game, alongside coaching.

I'm estimating just under €31m of spend on the above, and you can take out players like Snyman etc as the IRFU aren't paying him (unsure if other players are in this bracket), but based on Total Player & Management Costs for the Professional Game of €38.7m in 22/23, I think I'm in the right ballpark here.

That would roughly mean the IRFU contribution towards the coaching tickets, player development officers, 7s, Womens and bonuses of c. €7.5m p.a.

If you accept the above tiers as broadly logical, then the salary split across the four provinces is as follows:

Leinster: €10.47m

Munster: €7.64m

Ulster: €6.44m

Connacht: €5.89m

Thoughts?

ulsteru20s · 25-04-2024 12:17pm

Some of these don't make sense to me just from a 'why would this player be ok with this' pov.

I'll admit, i didn't go back and look at each one to see what their value was when the contract was signed.

But let's assume in the irish market, your importance to team ireland represents alot of your value. With that in mind some of these seem low.

In front row, Kellher, Healy, Bealham all look too low. They are important irish players at least when they signed.

Ditto for Lowe, JGP and Carbery. I think coombes probably gets as much as 300k just on his importance to munster. Ed Byrne seems way too low. He is an established prop who is buried in the leinster depth chart but is definitely more than a 120k player.

I also think probably all the NIQs make more.

Those are the ones that stood out immediately. I'll have another look later.

25-04-2024 12:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061185#Comment_122061185

I'm not certain the likes of Kelleher and Bealham are on materially more than the amount shown - they're still international back ups for the most part. Like I've shown all the CC guys on min €500k but think we've agreed previously this likely isn't the case. There still has to be some sort of relatively significant gap between guys who are backups and not on CCs and the guys who are.

On Cian Healy - it's very well flagged by numerous ex-players that the contract values dwindle as the players age. Healy is 36, and there is basically on rolling one year deals. There's no scenario where he is going abroad to play elsewhere at this point in his career.

I doubt Ed Byrne (30, 104 Leinster caps, 6 Ireland caps) is on materially more than I've shown. I've bracketed him as similar money to other front rowers like Eric O'Sullivan (28, 111 Ulster caps, 1 Ireland cap), Andy Warwick (33, 203 Ulster caps), Roman Salanoa (26, 29 Munster caps, called into Ireland squads), Dave Heffernan (33, 203 Connacht caps, 7 Ireland caps) and other guys who are established in the first 23s for Connacht like Jack Aungier, Denis Buckley and Peter Dooley.

Ed Byrne hasn't been in a Leinster 23 of significance in years, and hasn't been in an Irish 23 in years. I can't see the argument for him being able to command great money.

I have him on less than guys a tier above like Cian Healy, Marty Moore, Tom O'Toole, Niall Scannell, Stephen Archer and Jeremy Loughman.

Your general argument is they are all too low, but if you start inflating them all upwards, then the overall numbers don't make any sense. The guidance on these salary ranges is based on John O'Sullivan's IT article from 2023 where he's speaking to Peter McKenna of IRUPA, so I think these ranges are broadly accurate. https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2023/06/10/irish-rugbys-player-contract-model-looking-more-attractive-by-the-day/

arsebiscuits1 · 25-04-2024 12:41pm

I wonder how much International match fees come into play also. And do they exist outside the perceived salaries people report on.

It's widely accepted although not confirmed that I can tell that Centrally Contracted players get no match fees from the IRFU - or they do and it's assumed they'll play every Ireland game they can and their match fees are included in the reported total they get

Provincially contracted players get match fees outside of their provincial salary. The likes of JGP (10 apps this season), Conan(8), Healy(6) and Kelleher (10) are in essentially every single Irish 23 they are available for - including the upcoming tour to South Africa.

Using Kelleher and JGP as an example - it's likely they will have 12 appearances for Ireland by the end of the season

Per this article by the Telegraph - England players receive around £23,000 (€26,800) per Test appearance https://archive.ph/Jpbu9

So I think even if you were to look extremely conservatively - Ireland players receive 10k per appearance. That's buffering a reported provincial salary up an additional 120,000 plus

All of a sudden Kellehers (largely accurate) reported salary per Pitt the Elder above goes from 250-300k to 350-400k which would bring him not too far from what Sheehan likely earns

25-04-2024 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061265#Comment_122061265

Yeah, that's exactly my thinking on how it works for the guys in that tier below the CC guys.

sydthebeat · 25-04-2024 12:53pm

its been reported in a few places that Munsters, Leinsters and Ulsters player budget is €8 million, and connachts is €6 million.

now im sure its not as pin point as that, but these would be fairly ball park.

so take the central contracted players salaries out of it, leinster are spending approx €8 million on squad plus about €4.5 million in CCs so a total squad value of about €12.5 million.

munster are in the €9 million bracket when you consider POM and Murray coming off CCs (though still supplemented by the IRFU) and an element of the Snyman contract is off books.

Ulster would be firmly in the €8 million range including Hendersons cc (i don't see Tom o toole in your figures, and i would be putting hume up a tier)

25-04-2024 12:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061323#Comment_122061323

Sorry I accidentally omitted O'Toole in the listing above, but he's on the calculations I've done on Excel and in the overall Ulster number - I have him in the Tier 4 bunch (€200k pa - have edited to include now), so similar level of salary to Marty Moore, Jeremy Loughman etc, but a notch below Bealham, Jager, Kilcoyne etc.

ulsteru20s · 25-04-2024 1:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061240#Comment_122061240

Kelleher is ok making the same as John Ryan, even though he would be a pretty humungous loss to irish rugby if he moved abroad? Hooker is a two man position. Two elite hookers are extremely valuable. It is not feasible that he is making literally half of sheehan.

If we are counting match fees and centrally contracted players don't get those, that would make more sense.

sydthebeat · 25-04-2024 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061351#Comment_122061351

yeah im not so sure.

both hume and TOT are capped and were in a good arguing position when they signed their new contracts a month ago.

Kilcoyne signed an extension in feb 2023 but at 34 years of age, and that extension is likely to be his last. hes hardly on €250k

Jager came over on a bit of a promise and i cant see him being offered huge money initially. he wouldn't have been on huge money at crusaders so id imagine even €200k would have been a good deal for him.

but anyway, this i sall speculative, but id see ulsters wage bill higher, and closer to munsters in the main

ulsteru20s · 25-04-2024 1:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061323#Comment_122061323

Those approximate numbers make more sense to me. I think OP's are a tad low.

25-04-2024 1:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061397#Comment_122061397

As @arsebiscuits1 outlined above, Kelleher knows he's probably making another €100k a year in match fees on top of that level. Sheehan just signed his new deal a few weeks ago, and is probably the best in the world in his position. Kelleher is an elite player, but there is still going to be a significant gap in their pay.

ulsteru20s · 25-04-2024 1:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061412#Comment_122061412

Yea, like 200k maybe. 50% seems way too high. It also puts kelleher really close to guys he is clearly a lot better than.

If we are counting match fees though, that puts each province at a higher number.

Tipp1991 · 25-04-2024 1:17pm

Some of the Tier 6 would be out a nice bit. Some of those are on around €35-40k, I know for a fact that a couple of who you have listed in Tier 5 would be on half of what you have predicted.

I also read somewhere during the week that there will be no more "development contracts" going forwarded based on the new agreement between RPI & IRFU

Ronney · 25-04-2024 1:26pm

Was talking to an agent for some of the Top players (Central contracts). When it comes to Contract negations there is only 2 things up for discussion. Duration and Salary p/a. Appearance fees/Win bonus/Grand slam bonus are the same for every player central or not.

Podge_irl · 25-04-2024 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061431#Comment_122061431

Irish match fees are irrelevant when discussing the squad cost of the province, but they're obviously not irrelevant to the players.

Kelleher doesn't care that his 350k salary is made up of 250 from Leinster and 100 from Ireland.

ulsteru20s · 25-04-2024 1:27pm

if i had to guess, i think alot of the guys at top are too low and middle and bottom are too high.

I'm sorry for **** on this. Its alot of work and i do think the overall numbers are prob close. Its pretty awesome you put this together.

ulsteru20s · 25-04-2024 1:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061479#Comment_122061479

I think he would because if he injured he doesn't get the 100k, right?

Podge_irl · 25-04-2024 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061505#Comment_122061505

Well of course, but then he needs to be good enough to get a central contract but that's not on offer at the moment.

I have no real view on the numbers themselves, but you need to remove the 100k or whatever it is from Sheehan's number (or add it to Kelleher's) before you can make the comparison.

Also the timing of when they signed their contracts is going to come into play.

Clo-Clo · 25-04-2024 2:04pm

I was listening to OTB earlier, Keith Wood's last one. Think it was Rory O'Connor on and he said the private money behind the DDA and Synman moves are still putting money into Munster but Munster have decided to use that money towards the academy instead of pushing into big money signing.

First time I had heard that confirmed by anyone and to me would seem a better investment long term for Munster.

awec · 25-04-2024 2:10pm

I doubt Conor Murray is on as much as 500k. He signed his current deal in 2021, when he was already 32.

I think POM was similar?

Red Silurian · 25-04-2024 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058348794/contracts-total-salaries-irish-rugby

My initial thought is that O Mahony and Murray are not on central contracts but your figures for them seem logical

Your figures show what we have known all along. Instead of developing 4 provinces, the IRFU are really only interested in one

Podge_irl · 25-04-2024 2:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061760#Comment_122061760

My initial thought is that O Mahony and Murray are not on central contracts but your figures for them seem logical

I mean, right now they are. They just won't be next season.

Red Silurian · 25-04-2024 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122062047#Comment_122062047

Fair point. Although Dan Sheehan only recently put pen to paper so I'd assume his central contract doesn't start until next season

ulsteru20s · 25-04-2024 4:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061564#Comment_122061564

But there is a big difference between 250k and 500k, and there isn't that much difference ability wise between sheehan and kelleher.

I feel like if it was really this strict (back up is 250k) then more guys would leave the country. Kelleher is an elite player. Like he is probably a better hooker than some guys who have started for ireland in their positions. Hooker is also such a specific position where two guys play a ton .

Agreed on timings, that would be so much work tho lol.

Edit: maybe i rate kelleher too highly but i honestly wouldn't be shocked if he was a lion.

ulsteru20s · 25-04-2024 4:32pm

Delete

ulsteru20s · 25-04-2024 4:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061715#Comment_122061715

I didn't listen so jt depends what he means (could be a the high performance centre they are building maybe) but the actual academies are 100% irfu funded to my knoweldge. All the players are on irfu deals.

blackwhite · 25-04-2024 4:37pm

Season ended 2021-22 Leinster spent approx €2.3m on player salaries, and had players paid by the IRFU of approximately €2.2m as well.

AFAIK player contracts were still a bit deflated due to Covid that season

ulsteru20s · 25-04-2024 4:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061475#Comment_122061475

Just to confirm centrally contracted players get same match fee (appearance fee), win bonuses as everyone else?

Do you have any numbers for those fees?

aloooof · 25-04-2024 4:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122062490#Comment_122062490

I'd agree tbh. I'd be extremely surprised to see 35 year old John Ryan and Dave Kilcoyne being on the same money as Kelleher. I don't even see Jager and Casey being on the same money as him tbh.

Podge_irl · 25-04-2024 4:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122061475#Comment_122061475

I don't know when this discussion was, but there was famously an example of SOB (I think?) deciding to forego a central contract as he thought the appearance fees and whatever image rights he could maintain were more important. Ultimately of course none of us know. But it has been widely reported that centrally contracted players don't get additional fees for test matches.

Podge_irl · 25-04-2024 4:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122062490#Comment_122062490

There is a big difference only if there are not additional match fees at Ireland level. Otherwise it is 350 vs 500.

There has always been an assumption in any reporting I have ever seen that centrally contracted players don't get the same representation fee as others.

Contracts & Total Salaries - Irish Rugby

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