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EU Study finds ICE vehicles consume 20% more fuel than advertised

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 919 ✭✭✭SchrodingersCat


    The source is a press briefing from the EU Auditors that happened from Luxembourg on the subject yesterday. You gave a link to one report from January, but the auditors drew on the findings of reports published over the past three years.

    Its good to check the sources of articles in the media.

    Good point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,509 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    It's there a link to the most recent briefing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,364 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,509 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I saw it popping up on other sites as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,806 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    The auditors report was pretty scathing of fuel savings, basically saying the past 10 years of efficiency improvements have been completely wiped out by the rise in less efficient SUVs

    So exactly nothing has been achieved by ICE cars

    Meanwhile EVs are the only way to meet CO2 goals, but need to become a lot cheaper for mass adoption

    There's going to be some fun between the EU and European car manufacturers. The manufacturers want tariffs on Chinese imports because they distort the market (by representing a fraction of EV sales), but if European companies just use that as an excuse not to release cheaper models then I say open the floodgates from China

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,686 ✭✭✭beachhead


    Just came across this post today.I don't think a European manufacturer sponsored the audit by the EU-much too soon to get involved in a controversy again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,806 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    The report seems to paint the European manufacturers in an extremely poor light, so I doubt they sponsored it at all

    Frankly I'm surprised there wasn't more of a campaign to kill it before publication

    Western manufacturers have been dragging their heels for decades, pushing hybrids as the future while up selling customers to SUVs and negating any benefits from better efficiency

    Meanwhile China made the bet early on EVs and is now reaping the rewards while everyone else plays catch-up

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 122 ✭✭Core6


    I don't think that China made a bet early on EVs — they had to do something to change their air pollution problem and EVs was one of their solutions.

    Beijing is ranked 2nd worst in the world air quality ranking and three other Chinese cities are in the worst 20.

    London is ranked 70th and Dublin is ranked 113th out of 121 cities.

    The Japanese (Toyota) have been pushing hybrids much more that the European manufacturers. In fairness to Toyota they were leaders back when the Prius was launched back in 1997. They are still peddling that technology now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I agree. This looks really bad for European manufacturers. If any company was sponsoring it I'd say it would be a manufacturer of all-electric cars like Tesla, BYD or MG. I assume that in the interest of unbiased journalism that Adrian Weckler will be all over this in his next publication



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,102 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    China is not pursuiing EV's because of air pollution. 95% of all the worlds under construction coal fired power stations are in China. They are estimated to be on track to adding 200 GW of extra coal capacity by the end of the decade. Coal is already responsible for 70% of their current emissions, so it's only going to increase.

    https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/chinas-coal-country-full-steam-ahead-with-new-power-plants-despite-climate-2023-11-30/

    I think they are deeply concerned that if they aren't seen to be doing somethig greenish, they will face approbrium in foreign markets and are trying to head off massive tarrifs or sanctions, so they are engaged in large scale solar and wind projects for the sake of appearances and to subsidise those industries. I think they intentionally dump products like solar panels to snuff out entire industries in the west, like the German solar panel manufacturing industry that no longer exists. It also helps that those efforts benefit those industries economies of scale and help them with exports of those much in demand systems. A large fraction of the turbine masts used in the EU are from China along with many other components.

    Their latest target is the EV sector. While some CO2 panic merchants are stupidly cheering on low priced dumped Chinese made EV's, thinking it's great if it means cheaper EV's, they are either ignorant or uncarring of the industrial warfare behind it or the 200 GW of coal fired power plants the chinese are building, which are going to worsen global CO2 levels far more than if we stuck to driving ICE vehicles in the EU and rolled out EV's organically instead of welcoming Chinese dumping with open arms and loud cheers.

    Norway is very like China. They are intent on exporting as much oil and gas as possible in order to get as rich as possible, meanwhile they engage in a whole series of eco-window dressing stunts to present an illusion of eco-concern and general green-cred, like their utterly pointless EV sponsoring initiative. It works incredibly well and the world in general views Norway as a Green poster child of an example to follow, without realising what is really going on and the utter hypocrisy that enables it. They are literally getting other countries to emit the gargantuan quantities of CO2 that are driving their eco-infrastructure build, like a current investigation into a chosen site for building five Small Modular Reactors to provide 10% of their electricity. All paid for with exported oil and gas.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,806 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I think it's much simpler than that, China has large coal deposits but no oil or gas worth speaking of

    An oil based economy forces them to be subject to international market prices, which they don't like

    It also increases their dependency on oil exporting nations like the US, which they really don't like

    This is part of why China has often been friendly with Russia and Iran. They aren't allies per se, but they have common interests

    In terms of EVs, Chinese companies made very early investments in essential minerals, refining and battery production as well as EV manufacturing. They've had the market cornered long before the westerners got off their arses

    Lately there's been a drop in domestic demand for EVs in China, similar to the rest of the world. So Chinese companies have been pushing exports to try and alleviate oversupply

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    The Chinese might be adding 200GW of coal power plants which of course isn't good.

    But in 2023 alone they added over 300GW of renewables. Almost 60% of the worlds total for the year.

    They connected more solar in 2023 than all of the world did in 2022.

    So they are at least moving in the right direction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,102 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    While China did have an early start with EV battery production, the initial effort was really by Panasonic in conjunction with Tesla - in the US. EV battery manufacture only happened off the back of Li-ion batteries used in portable devices, something which the EU was not ever meaningfully engaged in. It's actually Japan that started the Li-ion battery revolution, with Sony and Panasonic being the world leaders initially, with the Chinese typically copying and stealing Japanes IP. South Korean companies have also been big in this field.

    Chinese made products should be tarrifed, due to their relentless theft of IP from other countries, not to mention dumping. If I had my way I would increase tarrifs on Chinese manufactured goods by 10% PA with no max until no western companies are reporting IP theft by Chinese hackers or below cost stuff is getting dumped to kill off western industries.

    Those cheap Chinese made EV batteries people like so much look to likely incorporate IP stolen from LG, for instance, who are the world's second largest EV battery manufacturer after China's CATL.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,903 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    yea but what china cares about is getting the polution out of the cities, so if they build coal plants out in the sticks, and charge electric cars in the city/ heat houses using electricity , then that pesky smog from fossil fuels in cities dissappears and the Communist party can show its looking after its people and their health.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,102 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    300 GW of renewables isn't indicative of how much energy will be produced due to the low capacity factors. Wind in China looks to have a 22.8% capacity factor, so if that was all wind, it would only equal 68.4 GW of actual production capacity increase.

    I suppose if you are an optimist it looks like the right direction, but it's off a poor baseline:

    I for one don't think increasing renewables on the back of forced labour and slavery is something to applaud. I'd rather have coal, though my preferred option is nuclear.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,106 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Are you saying that solar panels and wind turbines are made using forced labour and slavery, but coal is mined according to Western labour standards?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,509 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    And all the other materials used...

    Companies are not going to survive on such an uneven playing field when it comes to labour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,102 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I'm saying nothing about how coal is mined in China, perhaps you would like to give it a go? Europe doesn't import coal from China.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,509 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,106 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Your post was about electricity generation in China? 300GW, 22.8% capacity factor…



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,102 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Uyghur forced/slave labour is used to make those incredibly cheap Chinese solar panels. I haven't seen any indication that it's an element in China's coal production, which by necessity is highly mechanised.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,509 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    From the earlier link...

    "...According to HRW, the risk of coercion in the aluminium industry is linked to Chinese government-backed labour transfer programmes, which force Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslims into jobs in Xinjiang and other parts of the country.....The rights group cites “credible evidence” from Chinese state media articles, company reports and government statements to back up its research. It also reports that fossil fuel companies supplying coal to Xinjiang’s aluminium producers have received labour transfer workers at their coal mines...."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,509 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Steel, iron, aluminium are all used in ICE manufacture, and imported into Europe.



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