Easiest way to get a GUI handicap

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They are the facts you can't even dispute them

A lot of really good points.

I think it illustrates the balance that needs to be found between the traditional model and what the "modern" golfer wants. Now, at the same time, just because the modern golfer wants it, doesn't mean he gets it either. I know there's an element of "because we can" with entrance fees, IMO there'd also be a huge element of playing catch-up with members who have been there for years and paid all the levies and costs that would have been involved in creating the course/club. Levies for drainage, new greens, new land etc etc.

If there's a couple of hundred thousand rounds being played by non-members of clubs, there's potentially an untapped resource out there, but, the question is, how many of these rounds/players could actually be converted into memberships ? Maybe the 6 rounds a year guy has no interest in more than that. Maybe the 12 rounds a year guy would love to be a member somewhere. The problem I see is that for the guy who wants to be a member, he can right now. He might not get into a club beside him if he's in Dublin but other than that there's ok value to be had. Will this igolf thing work against him joining somewhere if he feel's he doesn't now need to ? Who knows.

Its a tricky one, for every point I think of, I come up with a counter point straight away. I think ultimately it will come down to whether someone buys in to being a member and part of a club, or thinks of golf like their gym sub and just wants a venue for their regular 4 ball with their mates once week from April to September.

id say you must well avoided on a timesheet

all those independent golfers pay to play golf, its not free, often large amounts, theres a lot of tourist rounds in there

I seen these figures before- serious rate of participation in Ireland compared to almost everywhere else.

But to add something about that ,seems odd...no way 1/4 of the population play golf ?

Like do 1/4 of the people you know play golf...not a chance...?

Must be double counting somehow...

Anyone that wants a handicap without club membership can simply join somewhere with cheap distance membership like Slievenamon for €150 and away you go.

It's pretty much what iGolf offers - and doesn't affect club membership around Ireland one jot. Same as any iGolf introduction won't. This product is not for club members.

There are lots of people in Ireland that would be doing well to play 10 rounds a year due to kids, work etc. This product is for them. They will either not bother playing golf or pay for something like this where they might occasionally get a round in. I'm one of these people.

This product is not for someone who has the time to play golf. They will still join their local club and all the benefits that come with it. I'll likely do the same when either the kids have fled the nest or I've retired. In the meantime it's either Slievenamon or iGolf for me.

If someone only plays 10 or so rounds a year why do they need a handicap in the first place? Makes no sense imo.

Surely they would be better off just paying green fees.

AFAIK igolf is to be set up as an affiliated club this way it will meet the requirements og Golf Ireland constitution.

Speaking to a few various club professionals over the past week or so all were of the opinion that this would destroy club golf in Ireland.

When i said about it being in England one mentioned completely different demographic of golfer there thats why it works..havent looked at that enough to comment one way or the other.

Another mentioned possibility of clubs witholding Golf Ireland subs unril this notion is got rid of.

A lot of questions and concerns among clubs about this and GI are doing themselves no favours the way it is being communicates..ie..a fait accompli.

problem is how it was presented to clubs, basically as a done deal and there was no questions allowed

The fact this was not done is of itself indicative that GI knows the negative impact it will have on clubs but all they can see is euro signs.

Clubs are struggling as it is.I believe NAMA paid a visit to a few more last week. Something like this may be all it takes to push more over the edge.

Then GI can have igolf all they want but nobody will be able to afford to play anyhow.

I would have loved it in my 20s.

Didn't know anyone in a golf club - and didn't want to be in a golf club. But would love to enter a comp.

Strange Bobster - Nama on the scene - unless the course are still in Nama ?

And fair enough you couldn't fault nama getting rid of their last assets at this point ?

But your talking about a very specific case - GI are looking (you hope) - at a far more macro level and the overall health of the game and future.

If golf courses are not viable at this time will they ever be ?

I'd like to see data on what happened to these golfers in Scotland. I'd be very surprised if a considerable amount of them were not new golfers - found it a very easy way to become involved in golf - and eventually graduated to club membership - golf has a great product we should not fear that.

If lads are going to run around the country to save money for a handicap - are they what you want in a club anyway ?

We have seen how lots of sporting associations have grown in Ireland.

be it

GAA / Rugby / Athletics / Tri Ireland

If the end point of this is more people playing golf / with ease of access - I can see it working - or see it as a good thing.

I've introduced maybe 15 people to golf over a period of 15 years - about 1 joined a club. So there is definelty a gap out there - or a need to help people get closer to club golf. Joining a golf club is too big a leap IMO - there is something missing in the golf journey - and Pub golf is dying and in itself a strange and dated way to get into golf.

There is a gap.

I agree there is a gap that is why clubs offer incentives to certain age demographics.

I firmly believe it is shortsighted and dangerous for the existence of member owned clubs for GI to remove probably one of the biggest selling points..that you have to be a member to acquire a handocap index..to allow hc be purchased for 55 euro(current subscriprion annually in england is 46 pounds.

I imagine clubs will get together to fight this

I'm involved in a members' club in Leinster. Our course is nice and we are relatively expensive compared to neighbouring clubs, but we are almost full. Despite this we struggle to make ends meet.

If the independent golfer scheme comes I will be recommending that we increase the cost of open competitions but offer a discount to club members.

A lot of people, even club members, have no idea how much it costs to operate a golf course to a good standard.

Is there actually a real need/want for iGolf though ?

As I understand it from reading the comments above (and I haven't looked up the official info so could be completely wrong on this), its effectively a club without a course offering handicaps, or almost like a society offering handicaps whose members will exclusively play opens. If this is the case, why not just join a Slievenamon or similar type club and get the same "benefits" ? Or take out the cheapest membership you can find in one of the courses that offer those flexi memberships where you pay a couple of hundred euro and say €20 is deducted each time you play your home course ? You'd have your 15/20 games that you've pre-paid for in your home course and also the scope to play opens at your leisure for a relatively small outlay compared to a full membership somewhere.

If iGolf ended up with several thousand members, I can't see how the handicaps could be managed or deemed to be even somewhat realistic ? How would they be monitored ?

I've a mate who's taken a year out due to family commitments and he can't enter any opens etc. He's raging that he can't play a handful of those comps when his schedule allows. Not sure if he'll come back next year but iGolf (if he didn't have to wait 6 months) would let him play those handful of events. Good example of someone who the system would help keep interested in the game.

Your views of "entitled" cyclists have no relevance and add no value to this discussion.

He's "raging" because he didn't fully understand the implications of taking a leave of absence. €1.5k to a young family with a baby on the way is a significant amount of money for most people. He's still paying part of the sub on his year off to maintain his membership for the following year so he still has an investment in the game.

He's more interested in playing an open competition with his mates rather than a casual round on the few chances he can play. I'm sure he'll get over the frustration pretty quickly and he'd still have taken a leave of absence if he realised his HC was to go on ice. It's not about trying to have his cake and eat it by having full member rights without paying.

I'm simply trying to look at a scenario where iGolf may help keep someone feeling connected and invested in the game. While I'm obviously skeptical of iGolf this would have been a positive example of people may be retained and encouraged back to the game.

On Paulo's point above ..it wouldn't instill confidence if they initially introduced it with a time element of needing to leave a club for a year ..then it gets in and is reduced to 30 days..

30 days is bullshit ..if they initially seen the risk..

So is a case of once door is open...

Can still see a positive if more golfers in association paying more for opens.

Do also think there is an issue of clubs running opens way too cheap ...are people still getting into opens for 20 quid ..maybe 25 ?

I'd say that was idea...but you shouldn't reduce the year at all...would completely avoid 90 % of concerns here...

I don't think he's smashing up his gaff with rage here lads.

The club still has to pay something towards GI afaik to keep him on the books but he doesn't retain a HC. It's probably in all club constitutions and GI T&Cs tbf.

He's not visible on GI app or comps/booking system. So I assume that he's in the backend of the system on ice. I don't know the breakdown of the fee for taking a year out but I'll ask him next time I see him. Normally I've only heard of people who were sick taking a year out.

So I just did a quick calculation.

Between membership and sub, entering competitions, supporting the club raffles, supporting the restaurant every time I play, I leave in the region of 2500 euro annually at my club.

A lot of members at other clubs leave a lot more.

All for the love of the game and supporting a club as CLUB MEMBERS.

Why in the name of all thats holy would I want to subsidise anyone being able to have the same privileges as me for 55 euro annually?

Golf is an expensive hobby, both financially and time wise ..always has been..always will be simply because members, unless a member of a business club, own the course,the club and pay for its upkeep.

If you cant afford membership, and I was that way when kids were young too, take up a cheaper hobby like pitch and putt.

Dont expect me or anyone else to subsidise you.

Golf Ireland are in for a rude awakening when clubs start kicking back against this, as they must, for if they dont the country will be flooded with ex members who left to take up igolf with no courses to play on as they will be closed through loss of funds.