single sex vs mixed schools

Thing is, in South County Dublin, if you have the money and the inclination to send your child to a private school, there are far more single sex school than there are co-ed ones. And I know, that to get into one of the co-ed ones, you need to either send your child to the private primary school by fifth class, or be a past pupil, or be the right religion, in order to guarantee your place. The co-ed private schools are massively more oversubscribed than the single sex ones.

Perhaps it is different outside of Dublin?

Primarily, parents want to send their child to the best school for academics and sport/afterschool activities. The gender mix of the school is somewhat of a secondary consideration - a "nice to have" rather than a red line requirement.

The few mixed private schools that I can think of nearby are Wesley, St Andrews, St Columba's, Conleths and Sandford Park. All of which have excellent reputations regarding academics and extra curricular activities. I can't say that the mental health of its students is more or less healthy than those who go to single sex schools - I don't think anyone has done a review on that. But I do know, anecdotally, of some recent incidences of severe bullying in some of the girls-only private schools (including Barbara Ennis' school) that perhaps, having a mixture of genders might help with. So I am less convinced that somehow girls are more protected from societal expectations or are happier in single sex schools.

Having attended single sex schools all my life, I found the first six months at university a very disconcerting experience. I am naturally not a shy person, but I found myself a bit at a loss on how to converse with men, given all my experiences to that point were at discos or house parties. I mean, I got there after a while, but I remember thinking, even at the time, that it was such an artificial way to educate children.

Amazing! Our national research institute leaves us to guess the gender-breakdown on a gender-based question.

That would be a career-ending omission in any research which arrived at the “wrong” results. And one can always avoid a “wrong” result in the social “sciences” - as we saw with the UL study, just pile on those “controls” and soon the “bad” news will disappear.

Even if a majority of girls said they wanted change, why deprive the (sizeable) minority of their choice when Co-Ed alternatives are readily available to the majority?

Not the “way I want”. The way all social research is done. Can you find a single Irish social research project in this century on any topic which didn’t provide a gender breakdown? Or where that factor was not highlighted in the media?

Yet here we have research precisely about gender which ignores/buries the girls’ data.

Definitely career-ending - if it had reached the “wrong” conclusion, e.g. “single-sex schooling is an option valued by many girls and their parents because of its demonstrated academic and developmental benefits and it should be supported as an alternative at this crucial educational stage”.

Congratulations- another perfect Strawman!

What I did say was that there is no shortage of co-Ed schools in South County Dublin (the area in question). Or do you imagine that anyone was forced to send their daughter to this school? 😅

In my experience, mixed all the way. You just have to know how to work with the opposite sex.

Yes, I can.

Googled it for you. 18 secondary schools in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown, the local authority in question here. Most are mixed gender. Lots more in South Dublin and on the south side of Dublin City.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_in_County_Dublin

You’re welcome.

Whooosh

The existence of schools is not the same thing as the availability of places in those schools.

Not all of south county Dublin is in DLR anyway. It's an area with the highest density of fee-paying schools in the country and almost all of them are single-sex.

Even they can see which way the wind is blowing though, parental demand is increasingly for coeducation.

Can you provide us with a single good reason to retain schools which discriminate on the basis of gender?

Ask the schools which are changing why they are changing. They're not being forced to do so. It's quite apparent by now anyway you're just arguing for the sake of it, you cannot provide a single good reason for gender discrimination in education. In particular, many girls' schools offer very limited science / engineering / technology subjects, how is that in anyone's interest? It's not in boys' interests to not be taught how to cook, either, but practically no boys' schools offer home economics.

If this wasn't just a legacy of tradition (which is literally the worst reason possible to do something, "it's always been done like this") we certainly would not be introducing it now.

If this is the reason, let them say so and give over with the mumbo jumbo in the media.

250 students is probably smaller than average but surely not unviable. Does anyone know what is the average school size and what is considered unviable? The Department doesn’t share this information readily. I just see reams of data on “average” class size (for the benefit of the teachers’ unions?). I would love to see a cigire go down to some small town and tell them their secondary school is not viable because it has only 250 students. Tar and feathers freely distrib 😅

Or do the parents of Killiney have different standards?

Its not true to say that single sex schools perform better. In my area, there are 2 x single sex secondary schools and they are considered to be failed schools. Any parent who can, sends their children to one of a number of mainly mixed schools in adjacent areas. There are long waiting lists for the mixed schools.

Its been said a number of times on this thread that single sex schools benefit girls academically. I dont see how. The girls school near me only offers science at junior cert level to 60% of students (3 of 5 classes). Many girls lose out in the lottery to get into the science classes. In an era where girls are being encouraged to do STEM subjects this is unacceptable. Effectiivly 40% of the girls in this school are denied the chance to study any science related courses in third level or pursue a career in a sten area.

Almost all of the exclusionary, fee-charging schools in the State are single-sex.

Correlation is not causation.

Whooooosh yet again

If they want to pay fees (keep their kids away from plebs, SEN and all that) then pretty much their only option is a single sex, religious order run school.

That doesn't mean that single sex education, or religious order education, confers any advantage, they're just accidents of history and the perpetuation of intergenerational privilege.

It's fee charging school so I'd imagine the economics and viability are different to non-fee charging. And probably they wouldn't disclose as they are looking for new intake of boys but still remaining fee charging. Even a slight dip in demand can indicate a trend.

As quoted above by a principal:

"the attraction to coeducation could be more about school survival, rather than any other factor."

St Patrick's co-ed school (beside st Patrick's cathedral) had to go public because of falling numbers and rising costs. The principal said the only way to stay viable was to increase numbers within the free system.

So to my mind both of those schools faced the exact same issue and ascribing gender preference as a cause mightn't be correct. Maybe parents have the choice for other fee charging girls (and boys) in the area... Holy Child Killiney , Mount Anvil , loretto foxrock, loretto dalkey, Rosemont , Wesley etc. We're at the peek of the population wave now so it might not be about having viable numbers now but they're planning for 10 years down the line, maybe they got a hint of things to come with subscriptions and can't wait 10 years or so and then decide to change.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/louise-mcsharry-the-kids-want-co-ed-so-why-are-so-many-irish-schools-still-single-sex/a309712947.html

More media tripe on single-sex schools.

This reads like click-bait but, on the whole, I think Louise McSharry is writing from ignorance rather than cynicism. Her uncritical reliance on those ESRI and UL studies to back up her anecdotal evidence is a giveaway. She doesn't even notice the absence of a gender breakdown in the ESRI survey (!) and she was never going to look at the raw data buried by UL.

What astonishes me most is her praise for the American public school system (apparently she attended school there).

Is her ignorance so profound that she genuinely believes that in America

there is no agonising where your children go to school

School choice i.e. the ability to choose a school other than the one nearest the family residence - is one of the hottest topics in American politics. Largely because many big city public schools are failing catastrophically while teachers' unions have immense clout within the Democratic Party (granted, Louise is correct to say that "each student is treated equally").

https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/articles/what-school-choice-is-and-how-it-works

The politics are high-stakes and, like most things for Joe Biden ….complicated. “Doctor” Jill should straighten him out

https://eu.statesman.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/07/20/fact-check-does-joe-biden-want-to-end-school-choice/42466037/

But at least there is a debate in America. Not our think-tank/bureaucracy/media ”consensus”.

What does Minister Norma Foley think? She has been entirely reticent on this issue but so, I think, have all her predecessors. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Let the ESRI study be her moment to confirm the policy which the Department has imposed rigorously for decades without democratic mandate or even, it seems, Ministerial approval. She would have the near-unanimous support of Boards.ie

Will she then have the courage of her (newly-espoused) convictions and put public pressure on her former school, Presentation Secondary School in Tralee, to abandon its "discriminatory" girls-only and give the parent and students of Tralee what (the ESRI claims) they really want? Let that be a top commitment in her election literature and to hell with the Healy-Raes!😆

And here’s an essential fact that you will not read anywhere in the media - 70% of Irish post primary schools are already co-Ed , which means that the current balance is a fair reflection of parents and students preferences in the ESRI report. But the Department won’t be happy until it is 100%.

Most of that is a load of crap not relevant to education in Ireland.

Thanks. Exactly what I meant about the Sindo piece 😎

Finn McRedmond and Jen Hogan "debate" in today's IT (without responding to each other)

Finn quotes her schoolfriends

all of whom agreed on the benefit of their single-sex education.

And concludes that

single-sex education – at least for girls – is the radical act. And the slow descent into a monoculture of co-ed schools is a rather depressing and retrograde idea.

In contrast, Jen has

yet to speak to a single [parent] who thought it was important that their sons and daughters went to two separate schools. 

although

their children, like mine, mostly happily ran into [single-sex] primary school every day. 

Despite the views she espouses today, Jen sent all seven of her children to single-sex schools and she doesn't express any regret for doing so, apparently because the schools were "local". She does not say where she lives but nowhere in Dublin is far from a Co-Ed school. She does not want parents to have that choice.

You might like to contribute to this "debate" but the IT shut down its comment section two years ago and has done nothing to fulfil its bogus promise of an alternative comment system.

Not long ago, freedom of thought, inquiry and expression in Ireland were constrained by an atmosphere of deference towards, and even fear of, the Catholic Church. We now have an intellectual "monoculture", that is a ready conformity to the received wisdom of a new hierarchy of self-appointed ideologues, often attached to educational institutions.

The corollary is an inability to formulate critical thoughts independently or even to engage intelligently with alternative viewpoints. A cursory read of the negative and dismissive comments here is a sad illustration of the phenomenon. We are now close to an educational "monoculture" in Ireland which aims to eliminate real choice in schooling and even the spirit of open enquiry which is the fount of true education.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2024/05/07/the-debate-has-single-sex-education-had-its-day-jen-hogan-and-finn-mcredmond-debate/

I bet Finn went to a very nice SoCoDu fee charging girls' school. This means her experiences and those of her schoolmates are not representative.

Her article has nothing to offer but anecdotes and appeal to tradition but that's a very familiar tune from the advocates of enforcing gender segregation in our education system.

She was hired to be an "Indo style" would-be controversialist-for-the-sake-of-it and that's not a positive move by the IT. It's driven by the need for clicks at all costs.

I think education has more pressing issues

this has not prevented them from backing (almost unanimously) a series of measures strongly opposed to Catholic teaching.

I can't see much change on Catholic teaching since I went to school in the 80s!

What's changed?

Btw Wikipedia has most of the tds / ministers education.

Dude, it's 2024.

This is exactly the kind of study which should be done by one of our growing army of Educational Ph.d candidates if the elimination of single-sex schools was about improving education.

In reality, no researcher will touch this issue with a barge pole. What if it emerged that single-sex schools were better, academically and socially? 😳

Then the most torturous statistical “controls” would have to be applied to eliminate this result- the kind of alchemy which UL needed to tell the media that the single-sex schools offered “no significant advantage” although their pupils clearly outperformed the co-ed pupils in the OECD PISA tests.

Remember when politicians used to talk about evidence-based policies? 🤣