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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,115 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    they've had to downgrade sections of the planned greenway because of environmental concerns, it's a nonsense suggestion to think they'd fill the whole canal in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,731 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    there was a plan in the 70's to put a motorway along the canal and railway, but it never got off the ground.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,731 ✭✭✭GerardKeating




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,868 ✭✭✭Economics101


    I think that was the Grand Canal on the Southside. The Royal Canal has very deep cuttings east of Clonsilla, and a huge embankment over the Rye water near Leixlip; not very easy just to lay 2 more tracks alongside the railway.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It was the Grand Canal that was to be filled in to become a road. Never happened though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,612 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Both were proposed at various times. Within city bounds only, wouldn't have got as far out as Clonsilla



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,669 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    lol why is this mad idea even being vaguely discussed



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,868 ✭✭✭Economics101


    https://www.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/dublin-news/new-electric-dart-service-with-improved-accessibility-due-next-year/a1039699331.html

    I see from this that the charging in Drogdeda will take "less than an hour".

    Let's hope this is not true, but the ueusal cr*p reporting from the Indo.

    BTW, I don't mean literally "not true", I mean misleading. Less than an hour signifies a lot more than 10 to 15 minutes to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 805 ✭✭✭spuddy


    "The new Dart+ trains are to be delivered in September for testing, with the first two improved accessibility and climate-friendly units set to become operational in late 2025."

    Is it going to take 14 or 15 months to put the trains into service?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,115 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    new model requires a lot of testing. Though I also suspect that as IR always updates their timetable in early December they've decided they won't make the 2024 revision, so they can relax and aim for Dec. 2025.



  • Registered Users Posts: 410 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Full length DART has the capacity for 1400, and 29k for 1280 - although I’d say that’s optimistic, and older darts have more seating. Pre covid rail census the busiest dart had over 1100 onboard.

    in regards to a separate post about the need for BEMUs, wasn’t the original plan to electrify Maynooth line, and cascade 29k to Drogheda. So they’re as a result of delays.



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭loco_scolo




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, that is for a half length unit (HLU) which is 5 carriages, equivalent to a 4 carriage current DART. A full length unit will consist of a set of two HLU's 10 carriages, about the same length as a 8 carriage DART.

    I'd take passenger capacity numbers with a pinch of salt. These sort of articles always leave out a vital piece of information, how many passengers per square meter is the number based on?

    This has changed over time, for instance you see old articles about Luas claiming higher passengers numbers then newer articles for the same length of Luas. It turns out the passenger numbers by square meter measurement has changed over time (less now), while there isn't any actual change in the real vehicle capacity.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I would assume a fully tested new Dart train could be used on currently scheduled services between Bray and Malahide.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,115 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    you'd think so - they could probably drop one in as a direct replacement for a 2900 service to Drogheda as well assuming the charging facilities are built.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,846 ✭✭✭thomasj


    Unless the plans have changed , the plan is/was for Maynooth-Bray, Maynooth/M3 parkway-Spencer Dock and Hazelhatch-GCD/Spencer Dock/Heuston



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 805 ✭✭✭spuddy


    I was hoping someone would say Dec '25 is for the BEMUs, but that the EMUs would be in sooner!

    In the meantime, I ended up down a rabbit hole, it's a good read though!

    https://www.modernrailways.com/article/confessions-commissioning-engineer



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭mackerski


    Are riff raff afraid of the smell of diesel? Or how else are they prevented from using the trains that already run to Skerries?



  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭FledNanders


    What will happen to the faster intercity trains that don't stop from Maynooth until Broombridge when the Dart comes? Will it slow these down?



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Don't know what the exact plan is/was. I'm fairly sure the service patterns have not been decided. They'll also change a lot, as and while the full Dart+ and Metro plans are built.

    However, I highly doubt all Maynooth Darts, which head via Connolly, will continue all the way to Bray, if that's what you mean?...

    They'd need to massively reduce the amount of Northern Darts heading to Bray and, instead, terminate some of these in GCD/Connolly. The plans for Spencer Dock only have a single alignment connection from the Northern Line to Spencer Dock, so it's unlikely any Northern Darts will terminate in Spencer Dock.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,474 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The canal is an artificial man-made construction, filling it in and converting to public transport would surely be environmentally friendly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,474 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The only way you can 3 0r 4 track west of Glasnevin junction is through infill of the canal. CPOs won't do it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,846 ✭✭✭thomasj


    The plans were in the dart+ west plans . Don't ask me where .

    The plan showed the following max allocations:

    Northern

    Drogheda Bray - 3 TPH

    Laytown Bray - 2 TPH

    Malahide Greystones - 2 TPH

    Clongriffin Bray - 2 TPH

    Western

    Maynooth Bray - 3 TPH

    Maynooth Spencer Dock - 3 TPH

    M3 Parkway Spencer Dock - 4 TPH

    South western

    Hazelhatch GCD - 3 TPH

    Hazelhatch Spencer Dock - 4 TPH

    Hazelhatch Heuston - 4 TPH



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Looks like plenty of green space between Clonsilla and Coolmine without having to infill the canal. No houses or private gardens built right up against the line like most other areas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    There is already a siding immediately west of Clonsilla. It would be quite easy to incorporate that and have three tracks from the split to Dunboyne as far as the Dr. Troy Bridge. The land is available, you'd only have to set the southern platform at Clonsilla back to allow for a through track. Closing the LC without adding a bridge makes it easier but the new planned pedestrian/cycle bridge might not allow for it. I suggested this making that section three track during the DART+W consultation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 264 ✭✭Accidentally


    For Drogheda trains, stopping at Dart stations probably won't add much time. While officially nonstop from Malahide to Connolly, you end up queuing behind Darts anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,868 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Are the pics you posted for the Clonsill-Coolmine area? The green space you refer to is actually the "Deep Sinking" a very deep rock cutting, at the bottom of whichis the canal The photos were obviously taken in Summer when the extensive tree cover in the are obscures the canal



  • Registered Users Posts: 236 ✭✭danfrancisco83


    For Dart+ West, would you still expect to see some level of construction this year? No sign of RO yet, maybe Spring 2025 is more likely?



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Yeah that area. The canal is on the right in the pictures. Pics taken from Google Earth, which gives a very good idea of the space, as it's a 3d map. I'm not familiar with the area, but it certainly looks like there's plenty of space (to the left) to add a 3rd track.

    Anyway, it's outside the scope of the Dart+ plans so I won't linger on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 805 ✭✭✭spuddy




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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    This confirms that it's a 20 minute charge, just FYI.

    EDIT - Gave it the full listen there, these jumped out at me:

    • Batteries are replaceable/upgradable
    • End of 2025 before it's in service, and I got the impression that is if everything goes right.
    • This model (without the battery) is already in service in Oz

    Oh, a further thing to note, the journey out to drogheda leaves about 30 to 40% percent charge left, according to the modelling they've done. That should give an indication of how it might perform to other locations, like Wexford, etc. Don't think that they'd schedule a service that'd bring it below 20-25%, imo, they'd want a very healthy margin for error.

    Post edited by CatInABox on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I'm not sure the BEMU version of the Xtrapolis in in service in Australia, but the regular EMUs are used all over the place. The Australian ones may be the latest version, though.

    Yes, the batteries can be expanded or even removed to save weight. The products from all manufacturers have become highly modular: for instance Stadtler's latest FLIRT intercity trains can be swapped between diesel, EMU, BEMU or hydrogen power after purchase.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Yes, thanks, did a quick edit there, I don't believe that he was referring to the BEMU version.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Seems NTA plan to extend to Kilcock proper for Dart+ West

    "When questioned by Social Democrats TD for Kildare North Catherine Murphy, Deputy CEO of the NTA Hugh Creegan said that assuming planning consent comes through for the project this year, "we would envisage starting a project with Irish Rail next year to extend to Kilcock and ensure that we get the extra distance out there."

    Mr Creegan also stated that it should be able to run concurrently with the construction of the larger Dart+ West project."

    https://www.kfmradio.com/news/localnews/nta-intends-to-extend-the-dart-west-out-to-kilcock-train-station/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Seriously, why was it not included in the original Dart+ project in the first place? So many unnecessary omissions to this project, along with omission of many planned intermediate stops for Dart SW



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Not to downplay the reasonable chance that these things simply weren't thought of, but all evidence of how the NTA is handling its big projects, Dart+ and Busconnects (Metrolink excepted, kinda has to be an all in one) speaks to a compartmentalised approach to the planning process. Not having these stations be part of the Dart W/SW planning application, but being concurrent applications that the actual construction phase can account for, means that, for example, a Kylemore station could be rejected/JRd to death (bigger land take, "stealing my garden" etcetc) without it killing the whole Dart + SW (or the whole Dart+ project)

    That said, I would say in the case of Kilcock there's a very good chance they just didn't account for the furore over it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭densification


    Because the GDA Transport Strategy said the Dart should be extended to Maynooth, not Kilcock.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,213 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The NTA is wasting a lot of time and money with the approach they have

    Kilcock is an obvious case for a limited frequency extension, doesn't require a new substation just a few hundred meters of wire. Numerous responses during public consultation pushed for Kilcock. Now we have to do another set of studies and planning, so € wasted

    Same thing with a station at Cabra and Inchicore, more time and € wasted

    You would think the NTA are on our side and pushing to get things done right and done quickly



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,612 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    A full extension will need a new station at a new location, which will go down like a lead balloon. Existing station is built on the trackbed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Adding those stations to the existing project would have added more time to the planning of the project as a whole (maybe not as much as doing them separately, but a fair whack, and resources are finite), all the same environmental factors, impact studies etc would have to have happened, this way they are just decoupled from what is effectively their "parent" project (importantly of course while being at arms reach legally from it) at worst you are missing out on some fairly minor benefits in concurrent processing, (good chance planners moved straight on from Dart+ West planning to Cabra Station planning anyway) while gaining significant benefits in the decoupling of the overall scheme. While there are zero guarantees, getting individual stations through to construction shouldn't take anywhere near as long as getting all of one Dart+ corridor through, so there's every possibility of the stations being ready/near ready when the corridor goes live. (Some will point to the cork level crossings issue as NTA failing to deliver, but it's unclear what exactly is holding that up).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    In relation to adding starions was there any mention of an M4 Parkway? The line is less than 1km from the motorway just west of Maynooth but doesn't have the necessary road access.

    However is Kikcock comes onto the radar then Junction 8 is already there. Is Kikcock too far out for P&R?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,612 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Proposed for 14th Lock / Jackson's Bridge in the county development plan. Or possibly the local traffic plan. Either way, KCC want one even if the NTA don't

    That would be linked to a new junction joining the M4 to the Maynooth Ring Road, which also doesn't exist yet



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It is obvious that the entire approach to DART+ is to break it down into lots of smaller projects, so if one project hits a planning road block, it doesn't impact the rest of the projects.

    I think that is an extremely smart approach.

    They basically did the same with the intercity road network. The whole thing cost 10 billion+, but it was never advertised as that, instead it was made up by many smaller projects, not even pre motorway, but like 50 to 100km sections and it worked very well.

    I always say that the start - stop nature of the DART construction has been a great pity. First opened in 1984, then nothing until 2000 when it was extended to Greystones and Howth and then nothing again for another 24+ years!

    Just imagine if instead over those years it had been gradually extended just a station or two at a time, Malahide to Rush and Lusk, then to Balbriggan, then to Drogheda, etc. and the same to the Western lines. We could have had a lot of what DART+ promises years ago!

    I hope they can learn lessons from this and instead have a package of constant smaller DART extensions, Luas extensions and lines, Metrolink extensions, gradual Intercity electrification, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Steady stream of projects is vital for retaining the skills as well, you can see in the number of senior staff on these projects doing talks who are like "well I got my start on x in Ireland, then worked on these projects in the UK/France etc, and now I'm working on Dart+" they just had to, no work for them here because there wasn't that steady stream.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Maybe it’ll just be a one track job with Kilcock and Maynooth both acting as terminus on the route. I’d gladly take that if I lived in Kilcock.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I would hope that the plan for Kilcock is more than just an extension of electrification. The existing station should be replaced by a new station west of the R125 where there is more space. Ideally it would have a U shaped platform with DART terminus in the middle and through tracks either side, thus allowing for easy transfer to other trains in both directions. A pedestrian/cycle over bridge and across the canal would provide an easy link to the town centre and encourage cycling to/from the station.

    I also think an additional station on the eastern side of the town would make ssense. There has been a lot of development there and this would avoid residents having to travel west in order to go east. It could be a basic station, even one platform would suffice as it wouldn't be served trains going west of Kilcock.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,918 ✭✭✭SeanW


    With specific regard to Kilcock, is the R125 bridge high enough to allow catenary underneath?

    The biggest problem at Kilcock as I see it is that the plans in the All Ireland Rail Review (or AIRR) is to restore double-tracking to Mullingar. That will be a problem at the current Kilcock station where space is tight. So something drastic will have to be done there regardless. Also, Maynooth makes a good interchange point between the long distance services and local Commuter service - a lot of students going to NUI Maynooth take the Sligo and Longford trains to Maynooth while those going to other places along the line use Maynooth station to change to the Commuter, and this would also need to be considered if extending the DART to Kilcock.

    Though I do like the idea of a Kilcock East station.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The AISRR has no bearing on anything, it's not even worth mentioning.

    The lack of space means that Maynooth will be extremely limited as an interchange station. It would be less an interchange, just Sligo trains stopping there in between DARTs.

    At Kilcock, you could have new regional services (e.g. Longford to Kilcock) providing a useful level of frequency. Cross platform change to a waiting train would make it attractive. Could even develop a bit of passenger traffic between midlands towns on the line.



  • Registered Users Posts: 410 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Video about new DART fleet:

    Some key points include:

    They will be tested on battery power prior to moving onto overhead wires

    BEMUs to be maintained in Drogheda

    EMUs in Fairview

    Due to delays in Dart plus programme, specifically the new depot, no new orders can be placed other than to replace the original Darts.

    Batteries to be shipped separate to trains

    It’s also mentioned that the interior will feel wider, does anyone know that the dimensions are compared to current stock?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    They also mention that they modelled them for Cork commuter and they had excellent results and they also think they could be used for Limerick and Galway commuter services too. But that is all in the future once they have tested and proved them on the DART.

    These sort of sound like Ikea trains to me! :) Some assembly needed, boogies and batteries need to be added in Inchicore! They will also have some plug based charging in Inchicore.

    Excellent point about them not able to test them in mainland Europe due to the different rail gauge and how they need to be assembled and tested in Ireland instead. Shows what a pain in the hole Irish gauge is. It also goes to show what idiots people are who complain that Metrolink and Luas don't use Irish gauge! Them being standard gauge makes purchasing, manufacturing and testing so much easier.

    Due to delays in Dart plus programme, specifically the new depot, no new orders can be placed other than to replace the original Darts.

    FYI, they are talking about the Maynooth depot and DART's for the West and SW lines. Drogheda and Fairview will be able to take the BEMU's for the existing extended DART line.



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