Increase in Anti-EV Media Articles

techdiver · 02-05-2024 4:28pm

I want to be positive about EVs. I currently drive a 2017 Diesel Skoda which I plan to keep as long as possible, but accept that my next car will probably be an EV. My family probably are probably the ideal target for an EV. Mostly short runs around town with occasional long distance drives to the in laws.

The problem many people have with adopting EVs is the uncertainty and planning aspect of travel. At the moment I get into my car and rarely even look at the fuel gauge. I drive until I see that I might need to fuel up and can do so in countless places across the country. Due to the absolute shambolic nature of our infrastructure in Ireland I cannot do the same in an EV. Having to plan a journey like a WW2 pilot (obvious hyperbole before anyone latches onto this comment) doesn't appeal to the majority of people and until that can be addressed widespread EV adoption will be slow.

The other thing I hear many point out about EVs is battery degradation. Like it or not, that fear is real. I have yet to see compelling evidence that ICE engines suffer the same level of degradation as EV battery's and we are essentially in the infancy of EV adoption (i.e. it will be a while before we see real data on a large data set of battery wear). If this is all a myth and scaremongering then a simple solution for the manufacturers is to voluntarily give lifetime battery warranties. The fact that they don't paints a picture to me. And no, you can't compare it to wear parts of an ICE car when the cost of replacing an EV battery can range from anywhere from €5,000 to €15,000+. And despite the "long warranties" that are often given, as we saw back earlier on the thread manufacturers will weasel their way out of it easily due to small print.

To summaries the barriers to wide spread EV adoption in Ireland:

Journey planning. People just want to dive and not have to worry where to stop and charge. It needs to be as convenient to change your car as it is to currently fill up on diesel. At the moment that is a pipe dream. I know we have home charging, but if you forget to charge you car for some reason or there is a power outage and you need to go somewhere on short notice you are **** out of luck. For an equivalent situation for an ICE car you just need enough fuel to go a few miles to the nearest filling station.
Price stability. As we have seen in the past year that current EV owners have gotten hosed with the price drops of new EVs. EV sales have dropped 14.2% in 2024 despite them being "cheaper" than ever.
Reliability. Battery range/life anxiety is a real concern for many. Until the public as a whole can be satisfied that they won't be landed with a €15,000 bill 6 or 7 years into ownership people will shy away from EVs. Also, people are not satisfied with a battery losing so much range in such a short period of time. ICE's do not do the same.
Environmental impact of manufacture. So the figures show that the manufacture of EVs are more environmentally damaging than ICE, the claim is they more than make up for it during their lifetime, but what is the lifetime of an EV? They haven't been around long enough and in great enough volumes to really test that in practice. We can have all the theoretical numbers we want but they aren't worth a damn without solid evidence.

Solve the above issue and concerns without soundbites and people will embrace EVs. Until then ICE will still be king for most.

Clo-Clo · 02-05-2024 4:36pm

I do find the whole thing strange, why are people suddenly lapping up what a car dealer is saying and making decisions based on that? is the population gone a bit thick

A car dealer will sell what they have in stock, they are not going to sell you or tell you to buy a car they don't have.

Are people that gullible they don't understand this?

Cyrus · 02-05-2024 4:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090462#Comment_122090462

congrats, i think you have covered almost all of the FUD in one post and made it look like you are being genuine.

techdiver · 02-05-2024 5:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090503#Comment_122090503

You can think I'm not being genuine if you want, but your childish response adds nothing to the discourse. What about my post was pushing FUD as you call it? I said nothing inaccurate and was stating what my experience of people who fear adopting EVs feel. I already stated that for my next car I will be strongly considering an EV, but at the same time you can't ignore the barriers to entry. Are many of them laziness, fear of change? Undoubtedly yes. But you can't brush off the other points with cheap insults when your position cannot be proven.

It's an odd thread. I've posted maybe twice but have noticed the laughable defensive attitude of some posters as if you have insulted their mothers or something. Why that attitude? It's not constructive.

Just to back up my points above with references:

Battery degradation - 2.3% loss per year (which I don't think should be just downplayed) - https://www.geotab.com/ie/blog/ev-battery-health/#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20overall%20degradation%20has,life%20of%20your%20EV's%20battery.
EV sales 2024 - https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/04/02/electric-car-sales-in-ireland-drop-14-despite-rise-in-overall-new-car-market/
I don't think I need to post fact and figures to backup Irelands laughable charging network.
Battery warranties and expected lifetime - https://www.ecoplexenergy.ie/post/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last-ecoplex . 100,000 miles or 8 years done and something goes wrong with your battery you're **** out of luck. As I said above if manufactures believed in longer reliability they would back it up with better warranties.
Let's not also address the elephant in the room of the lithium mines in the Congo. As long as we can feel superior to the polluters in their ICE cars we can turn a blind eye to modern day slavery.

To get more people to buy EV cars will take more than "You're just too stupid to understand how they work Bro!".

kanuseeme · 02-05-2024 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090623#Comment_122090623

Well said, hard make a point here without some one or five jumping down your neck.

I would suggest you look at a phev, some of your concerns would be address with one, while battery degradation won't, the 2.5% loss a year would hardly be noticed on 100km range phev from skoda or VW.

liamog · 02-05-2024 5:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090623#Comment_122090623

You've mixed up Lithium mining with Cobalt mining, something which is very quickly being removed from mainstream batteries.

As to warranties, are you also of the opinion that a VW Golf needs an engine rebuild every 3 years because that's the standard warranty term?

02-05-2024 5:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090674#Comment_122090674

Actually in case of 1.4 TSi or 1.0 6 valve that was not far off :-)

Flinty997 · 02-05-2024 5:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090663#Comment_122090663

Make a daft point a poster will be called on it. An open forum is not an echo chamber

Flinty997 · 02-05-2024 5:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090462#Comment_122090462

The answer to all the above is if you want diesel features, buy a diesel.

If you want to post and not be corrected. A forum is the wrong place for that.

Cyrus · 02-05-2024 5:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090623#Comment_122090623

Because most of what you have posted has been addressed ad nauseum.

Journey planning - unlikely to be an issue unless you routinely travel 100s of km in a day. And if you do maybe an EV isnt for you. But given that you will wake up with a full battery if you need it and most modern EVs are good for 350-500 km of mixed driving chances are you wont be planning very often. If you do need to do it ABRP is a great resource and takes the guess work out of it. Most trips on the main motorways are well served with fast chargers that dont tend to have queues that i have experienced. Forgetting to charge i cant help you with but a bit like phones people tend not to. As for power outages good luck getting a diesel fill if the power goes out.
Price stability - an issue at the moment but will be temporary, it's a relatively recent development. Its an issue when you go to change, if the ev you are looking to change to has also had a price drop then the impact may not be an issue. How are people getting hosed? Its only going to happen if you are selling your ev and not buying another EV or another car at all, which is going to be a small minority of cases, guess what when people buy them they tend to stick with them.
Reliability - there is a lot less to go wrong and battery warranties are a lot longer than engine warranties in most cases, im not sure why you'd expect a lifetime warranty? Do you think replacing an engine (which is far more likely to fail) in a bmw after 6 or 7 years is going to be cheaper than replacing a battery? How many people do you think have actually paid 15k to change a battery?
Degradation - if you have a 10 year old EV i guess it may be an issue, but ive seen Teslas with 270,000 km that still have 91% of their original capacity, i dont think its nearly as big an issue as people would like to make it and its not as if ICE engines dont degrade over time, lose HP, lose efficiency etc.
If you are worried about modern day slavery then i think batterys in EVs should be the least of your worries and there are a lot of things in your day to day life you might want to avoid.

Cyrus · 02-05-2024 5:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090663#Comment_122090663

you are like a broken record 😂

Flinty997 · 02-05-2024 6:12pm

More

https://thedriven.io/2024/04/10/battery-recycling-capacity-set-to-outstrip-supply-of-end-of-life-ev-batteries-by-4-to-1/

Flinty997 · 02-05-2024 6:16pm

For those on budget

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/renault/twizy-2012-2021

prawnsambo · 02-05-2024 6:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090623#Comment_122090623

From the article you linked. If you're going to link something, maybe read the key takeaways at least?

And I also looked at the individual cars they took data from. The vast majority are (obviously, but it seems this needs to be stated) older models with older battery technologies. 2019 (the latest I could find) is 5 years ago. That's aeons in modern battery technology.

RoboRat · 02-05-2024 6:33pm

Let's not also address the elephant in the room of the lithium mines in the Congo...

Hmmm... yes, indeed.

I assume you mean cobalt... this is being phased out of batteries but do you know what's critical to the refining of petrol and diesel... I'll give a clue... it begins with C and ends with... obalt.

prawnsambo · 02-05-2024 6:37pm

Apparently Portugal has the largest lithium deposits in Europe. /random fact

Busman Paddy Lasty · 02-05-2024 8:05pm

Spot on @RoboRat Cobalt is used to reduce sulphur content in diesel. More distance driven in a diesel = more cobalt mining.

An EV with cobalt onboard, it's the same cobalt regardless of mileage. It has only mined once and as it's stored in the batteries can be recovered in future.

Reverse FUD for the laugh. What becomes of refinery cobalt sludge, is it incinerated? Pumped as a liquid sludge below ground in Saudi Arabia? Pumped out to sea? Concerned ICE drivers who care so much about the Congo should stop buying fossil fuels immediately :)

donkey balls · 02-05-2024 8:40pm

Bought my first EV last year and my insurance was €500 for the E tron from memory the insurance on he A6 quattro was around €700.

RoboRat · 02-05-2024 8:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091231#Comment_122091231

Yep, complete hypocrisy. Up there with the spontaneous combustion BS, which was debunked by the Australians.

I'm not bothered, if people are happy to continue propping up the oil barons, knock themselves out. I've got my solar array powering my car 6 months of the year for nothing 🤑

Red Silurian · 02-05-2024 11:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090873#Comment_122090873

Still better than getting to work on a bicycle, and more stylish

crl84 · 03-05-2024 9:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089813#Comment_122089813

I heard that, along with grade A knucklehead Paul Williams on the panel also. Apparently he won't buy an EV as you "can't go from Dublin to Leitrim without stopping for an hour and a half to charge up".

prawnsambo · 03-05-2024 9:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092736#Comment_122092736

Lol. I did that trip last week and could have done the return on one charge.

RoboRat · 03-05-2024 10:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092758#Comment_122092758

Yesterday, I did Dublin to Portlaoise, onto tullamore, then back to Dublin. Started with 80% had 15% when I got home... no horses were spared on route. Could have done it and had over 20% left.

Woke up this morning and i had 80% again 😀

But yeah, range and all that...

pah · 03-05-2024 10:57am

Maybe they are using the gen 1 Nissan leaf as their frame of reference?

eltoastero · 03-05-2024 11:14am

2021: Electric Cars cost too much - people complain
2024: Electric Cars are getting cheaper (therefore higher depreciation) - people complain

There was a massive supply shortage in 2021, every car (powered by petrol, diesel, electric or hopes & dreams) was overpriced.

It's good that prices are falling, more people can access an EV now should they want to. It sucks if you want to sell a Model 3 that you bought a year ago for €9k more than the equivalent model today.

Also, range anxiety only exists for those who don't have an EV.

03-05-2024 11:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093140#Comment_122093140

I think the only people who complain about the prices are either people who bought one as an "investment" or if they are a dealer that bought in too expensively. Also if you are hell bent to get yourself between the 242 plates to upgrade from that old 222 you might have only limited opportunities to get affordable cost of change. But the second hand market will thank you.

For myself I just drive and worry about the prices when it's time to change. The way the well designed EVs with sufficient range seem to last you can always decide that it may not be so important to get that coveted 251 in January.

Of course there is the generic rabble from the manufactures that are too lazy to develop good EVs at a right price and of course the oil industry lobbyists and people with vested interest in selling the refined products. And finally noise from the people who have it all sussed with the quality journalistm from the Sun/Independent/Times and the Pub.

Just drive whatever suits your needs and situation.

bruschi · 03-05-2024 11:34am

I dont know how some of you have the patience to respond to some of the posts and comments here and on social media. Fair play to you, but I also fear you are on a losing battle. Someone coming on here and going on about range at motorway speeds, or chargers in apartments, or the problems with public chargers, when for the vast majority of the population, and more often than not the people themselves, those issues dont actually apply.

I also dont get why someone who has no interest in an EV comes on to tell EV users how awkward and problematic the practicalities of having an EV is. EVs work for a lot of people. And they wont work for some. The vast majority of EV users use home charging. I have never had an issue with public charging. Twice, once in Applegreen and once in a Circle K, I was going to charge whilst I was stopped, but both were in use, so I just went in and got my food as I was going to do, and just kept on going home. I was only going to charge for the sake of it, not because I needed it. So there was no problem. Had I needed it, then yeah, it would be awkward. But I didnt, and thats as much an issue I have ever had with public charging.

Some of the absolute rubbish and changing of goal posts just astounds me. "yeah but you cant drive to Belfast and then to Galway and then home again". Or "I can do 800km in my diesel without stopping". As if they are common things that drivers do. I have done long trips in my EV and I have stopped for toilet/food break. Whilst stopped, the car charged. About 15 to 20 mins of a break. And thats it. I would do the exact same stop if I was driving my ICE car, so there is zero difference. And if you drive 800km in a day without stopping, then yeah, an EV isnt for you. And with the cost of starting at full on a home charge, with the high price of ionity fast charge, it still works out way cheaper to run.

But why the need to proclaim to everyone that unless a car does 800km then it wont work. It will work for many. Including the oft used rural types. I live rurally, about a 2 hour drive from Dublin, and I wouldnt change a thing with my EV. It gets me up and back without needing a charge. So its perfectly fine. It works for me, and it would work for a significant portion of other people. But some seem to rule out an EV for something that might only encompass a very small portion of their annual driving.

And dont even get me started on the whole crap on fires or the cost of a battery replacement and other such stuff being thrown about with no substantiation at all. The fact people will believe any old rubbish posted online

RoboRat · 03-05-2024 12:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093252#Comment_122093252

I don't like mushrooms, Coke/ Pepsi, iPhones, levi jeans to name a few things, but I don't tell people not to buy them, or start making things up to deter people from buying them.

Unfortunately some people are triggered by EVs or they're just misinformed, and they feel they MUST share their opinion, whether it's accurate or not.

Opinions are like arses, everyone has one, but not everyone wants to see yours. If it's full of sh1t, nobody wants to see it but if its well formed, people will be more inclined to look.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-05-2024 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093028#Comment_122093028

Sometimes you'd wonder if the Gen 1 Leaf did more harm than good.

Clo-Clo · 03-05-2024 1:01pm

Some of the advice been given out by dealer is wrong as well

I think I posted here about a person in office who bought a MG, telling me the other day huge range. In today and told me they have range anxiety, when I questioned why they hadn't charged the car. Why? well because the dealer told them not to top it up everyday. They are driving around with no air con etc to make sure they have enough range to get home.

Very poor advice from the dealer, which from what I can gather was warning against fast charging every day but they have home charger

Increase in Anti-EV Media Articles

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