Realising your with a narcissist who has been covertly controlling you for 20 years

Clara B · 29-04-2024 10:40pm #1

Hi,

So, after much therapy and personal reflection I've finally realized my husband is a narcissist and has been covertly controlling me for years.

It's not a surprise. I've seen the red flags, felt myself being eroded, felt the complete loss of privacy,autonomy and freedom. I've seen myself disappear and become weak. I've seen myself avoid bringing up things for the sake of peace. I've watched myself excuse his behaviour because of his childhood trauma.

I've blamed myself for it all. I've thought i was going crazy, too demanding and a disappointment. I wanted to be the one person in his life that didn't let him down.

I've gone to therapy, on antidepressants and Xanax because i feel responsible and ashamed of my feelings-but something today made me see what I have been ignoring, and thank god I have.

He's isolated me from everyone-he hates everyone in my life.

Hes stopped me socialising.

He controls our finances, asks me my bank balance and to explain my expenditure while he never has to.

He has retained access to all my social media because I logged in on his pc once. When challenged he said it was my fault for not logging out.

He opens my post.

Our car is tracked and he actively uses it.

He says he doesn't trust me, while I've never given him a reason not to.

He gives me the silent treatment when we argue. There's never a resolution and he never apologises because he's never wrong.

He never tells me he loves me, can't be affectionate or vulnerable and can only be unguarded when drunk.

He feels completely entitled to every inch of my body and every piece of me.

I can't stand it anymore. I'm ready to go. He's wasted every chance I've given him. We have 3 kids and i need to put them first. I'm financially secure and finally strong enough to leave. My question is-will he ever get better? We he ever see what he has done?

Sadb · 29-04-2024 10:48pm

No, he won’t. He will never see what he has done because he has not done it in his mind. Everyone else is to blame, or will be. He will never think that his actions lead to this.

Fantastic that you are now getting your life back, I wish you the very best with it.

hello2020 · 29-04-2024 10:53pm

Sad to know but this is typical narcissistic personality...no guarantee that he will ever get better... you can make him behave normal by setting strict boundaries n making yourself as less available as possible...if they don't have access to you they can't control u so try to stay away as much as you can since even after separation they will try to interfere using kids n other emotional drama

Clara B · 29-04-2024 10:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079480#Comment_122079480

I've always known that if I leave him he will destroy me. He first priority is him and he will fiercely protect himself.
Could he ever have even loved me?

Tork · 29-04-2024 11:08pm

Clara, have you spoken to Women's Aid at any point? I think a chat with somebody there might help you. Also, if you are thinking of leaving your husband, be very careful he doesn't figure out what you're planning. His abuse and controlling may escalate as he strives to bring you back into line. Again, this is where a chat with Women's Aid wouldn't go amiss.

sniperman · 29-04-2024 11:12pm

ive been through much the same,36 years of it and have the scars,as well as all the other stuff i could not take the violence any more,long story short,had to get her gone through the courts,im now on my own 3 years,and regretting let it go on so long,she was my first and i loved her,im happy now thank god,people like that dont change,its hard,but we will be a long time dead,so we must try find some happiness in life before its too late,wishing you the best,i know what its like,its hard to imagine a different way of life,but believe me its way better,all the best.

Clara B · 29-04-2024 11:39pm

So sorry to hear of your experiences. You should be proud of your strength to leave. It's taken years to find mine.

I truly believed he was this great man who would never intentionally hurt me. That he was honourable and strong and a person of integrity and trust. I couldn't allow myself to think otherwise, because it i got that wrong then the foundations I built my life on were not solid.

sniperman · 30-04-2024 12:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079542#Comment_122079542

well it also took me alot of years to find the strength and courage to say im not taking this anymore,i also believed id spend the rest of my life with her,but as the years went on things got worse,i thought about her what you thought about him,seems we were both way wrong,but im glad now to be where i am,ive learned to be totally independent,its like a new life,i know its hard,but you should act now,dont waste any more of your life being miserable,time goes fast,in a few months youll say like me, why did i let it go on so long,dont waste what life you have left,take care.

marilynrr · 30-04-2024 12:56am

My question is-will he ever get better? We he ever see what he has done?

I read something about abusive men before who were 'reformed', they all needed intensive therapy and all of them said it would never have been possible to reform if they'd stayed in the relationship with the person they were abusing. Very few abusive men ever go to therapy anyway and if they do it's rarely for the right reason (ie. to actually change), it's mainly just a tactic to try to show they're changing so that they get another chance.

Will he see what he's done?? Unlikely, most likely he's going to convince himself he's the victim.

If he's a narcissist then that's a personality disorder, and it's not going to get better. Some with NPD wouldn't be particularly problematic to begin with, they would get their self esteem boosts in other ways rather than abusing people, but for those who have had decades of abusing people then no I can't see them ever changing. That's who they are.

I've always known that if I leave him he will destroy me. He first priority is him and he will fiercely protect himself.
Could he ever have even loved me?

Possibly but it's not the kind of love that you would want. It's a selfish love where they only want what ever it is they're getting from you but they don't care if they make you happy or not. It's not the way anyone would really want to be loved.

I'm ready to go.

If you're ready then get a plan in place. A safe plan. Womens aid will help you. Unfortunately sometimes if you wait too long the readiness leaves you and then you're trapped again for X amount of years or forever.

Do you have any evidence of the abuse? Would you be open to going down the route of reporting him for coercive control? Or do you just want to get out and hopefully have a clean break while trying to avoid that?

You said he's isolated you from everyone, do you have anyone at all you can reach out to in real life who could support you?

Clara B · 30-04-2024 1:09am

I do have people. Ive shield everything out of blond loyalty to him Today was the first day I didn't do that and put mine and the kids needs first .

Right now, he repulses me he had a gift in me and our gorgeous kids but he couldn't love them and take joy in being their father. I know now that the best thing I can do for them is remove him from their lives so I can break the cycle.

marilynrr · 30-04-2024 1:32am

Absolutely.

There's no happy ending in this relationship.

You don't mention if you have boys or girls (please don't to protect your privacy) but something worrying I have seen is that there's a lot of boys as young as 1st and 2nd year who are exhibiting extremely controlling behaviour already with their young girlfriends, and some of them have older brothers who also have a reputation for it so there's sets of siblings who are like this. It's really made me wonder if it's because these boys are witnessing that in their homes.

You and your kids deserve so much better. It's great that you are financially secure, that's one less thing to worry about at least. And that you have found some anger and disgust at him.

I cannot emphasise enough that you need a safe plan to leave, a possessive man who is used to having that much control over you can be extremely dangerous once he has lost control.

Hoboo · 30-04-2024 3:14am

Sorry to hear you’ve got another narcissist in your life after only recently realising your mother was also a narcissist.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058285550/narcissistic-parent

Warned: Breach of Charter. If you've no advice to offer. Don't post.

Andrea B. · 30-04-2024 7:04am

Had he isolated you from your sister and mother by convincing you that they had narcissistic tendencies?

Regarding your social media on his PC. Could you change passwords via another device?

Furze99 · 30-04-2024 9:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079601#Comment_122079601

Go get help in the real world on matters as important as this. For your own sake and your children.

Not from a bunch of strangers on a boards site with possibly all sorts of baggage.

----

Warning applied for breach of charter. The whole point of the forum is for people to seek advice on something troubling them.

wildwillow · 30-04-2024 9:44am

I wish you the best for the future with your children.

Please take the advice given by Tork and keep safe. Get help and a plan for an exit strategy that will leave you safe from any danger from his reaction to your actions. Be aware that this is the most dangerous time in your relationship.

Do nothing to arouse his suspicions in the meantime.

Clara B · 30-04-2024 2:01pm

We have 2 boys and a girl. The big reason I have gone to therapy and really focused on this is that I want our boys to be better. His childhood damaged him, I don't want to repeat that cycle. That's why I wanted to help him, but recognising a narcissist isn't someone you can fix has allowed me to let go and to focus on raising respectful, well adjusted children who's boundaries are respected and who's feelings are validated.
I am enough for them, because they are my sole focus. My daughter has a very fractured relationship with him. He doesn't try and understand her and he thinks giving the kids everything he ever wanted makes up for the fact that he can't express love .

He didn't choose to be this way, he is a product of neglect. He has so many amazing qualities, that's why I've stayed-but I can't help him at the expense of my kids.

For the poster who commented on getting advice else where-wind your neck in and perhaps read the posts! I've been in therapy for years to get to this point. As I am a private person I don't discuss my personal life with those close to me-they have also not experienced this. I choose to speak here to hear other people's experiences and opinions, and I am very grateful to all who spared the time to share and contribute. It has been insightful and appreciated.

hello2020 · 30-04-2024 2:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081546#Comment_122081546

I think recognizing the issue is first step to solution as most of the persons living with a narcissist keeps blaming themselves.. once you know problem is with other person you get back your self esteem and confidence..

please work on your well being and give less time & attention to narcissist..

less attention n loss of control will make them very angry and they will go mad at you for some or other reason so be ready for that and find a way to avoid any discussion or confrontation with them … there is nothing to gain by arguing with them and they will never be convinced that it's their problem so just avoid them by whatever means possible..

Clara B · 30-04-2024 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081696#Comment_122081696

He has not been diagnosed and has accepted he needs to go to therapy. I think he has narcissistic traits, I am in no position to diagnose that personality disorder and I feel it is often misused.

He went to therapy 4 times last year and I saw real changes, but I think allowing himself to actually feel emotions was scary and tough, so he stopped and made excuses every time I asked him to return.

He is not a monster, he is not deceptive or callous and calculating. He is damaged and as a neglected child he had to build a tough exterior and prioritise himself. I was fortunate enough to have an amazing childhood and it breaks my heart that this amazing person was never seen or loved or cherished, as every child deserves to be.

I am breaking his heart, and I honestly don't know what way he will try and cope with this. I would do anything to avoid this as hurting someone so wounded seems cruel.

His actions have very real consequences, ones I can no longer protect him from suffering-but I will always love him. I will always help and support him so he can grow and live the life he deserves. I will always be a supportive co-parent with him.

I may not be able to be his partner in life anymore, because he doesn't know how to give me what I need. I don't blame him for that. He gave me 3 amazing kids. I wouldn't take back my time with him. I wish I'd known more, been wiser, not ignored my gut instinct and prioritised myself more-but we grow from every experience.

No matter what he will always be the love of my life-I just don't know if could ever say the same.

Hannibal_Smith · 30-04-2024 5:33pm

@howsshenow I have deleted your post as it is more a discussion on narcissism and the Personal Issues/Relationship Issues forum is not a discussion forum. The Forum Charter can be found here and it sets out how the forum works (as you will see posting videos is not not permitted either). You are welcome to advise the OP on the advice she is seeking - in accordance with the charter of course.

Andrea B. · 30-04-2024 7:27pm

I hope this helps, to understand perspective of some responses. I think poster's are justifiably challenging the narcissist word.

You did start the thread with stating he was a covert narcissist.

Your last post states he is not deceptive, callous or calculating and has a heart that can be broken.

Yet, some posters are warning you to be prepared for an Armageddon of resistance and retaliation.

And, it may be bad luck that your post history references you believing that your sister and mother have narcissistic traits.

I don't know, but I suspect many therapists and counsellors head nod to the narcissistic trait, based on a single narrative.

All in, I wish the best for you all in moving on.

Clara B · 30-04-2024 9:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082959#Comment_122082959

appreciate the feedback. I did not refer to him as a covert narcissist, I referred to coercive control. As I stated I see narcissistic traits, but am not a diagnostician so in no position to diagnose him-again,something I made very clear.

There are some very evident traits, but a lot that are not there. There are different types of narcissistic personality and they exhibit different traits and characteristics.

I clearly see an enormous amount of good in him, I believe that is evident. But I also see and have experienced behaviours that are not acceptable. Over time I have allowed these to go unchallenged as it can be so draining to confront him at times.

I also started that I knew he would be extremely difficult to confront on his behaviour.

Through discussions with my therapist regarding my mother and sister she advised that they exhibited narcissistic tendencies. However they exhibit the behaviours of Grandiose narcissists. That's been my only point of reference for this personality disorder,so I didn't realize my partner was exhibiting traits as there weren't any similarities to my family.

I fail to see the relevance of my previous post here and my reading of your comment is that because I've previously posted about this topic I can't again, or my opinion is invalid. I very clearly stated I am not diagnosing him, I am no expert and I appreciated all the comments. I fail to see why you needed to jump in with your passive aggressive response. What purpose did it serve you? Did it make you feel better to diminish my feelings? I hope you got what you needed by being callous and judgemental about my life. I asked for and accepted all feedback and have used informed advice from my therapist as the basis of my opinions in relation to both posts.

I would suggest if you feel the urge to be superior and passive aggressive you direct it towards someone who isn't in the middle of a life altering experience.
But, thanks for your well wishes!

con___manx1 · 30-04-2024 11:30pm

Sorry for your trouble. The social media on his pc you mentioned you can log out from all devices from your phone. Just youtube how to do it.

Clara B · 30-04-2024 11:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083809#Comment_122083809

Thanks. I removed his access and changed passwords. I also demanded my money and the kids allowed we save. I am more than capable of managing finances.

I have set clear boundaries, insisted on weekly therapy. If he is consistent for 2 months ill consider couples therapy.

Purple Mountain · 01-05-2024 12:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083824#Comment_122083824

If thus has been going on for years, why do you think he'll change?

You have good as admitted that you'll only stay with him for fear of hurting him.. but what about you? Your children? You all deserve much better than this cycle of abuse that has gone on for years already.

Clara B · 01-05-2024 12:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083834#Comment_122083834

you are 100% correct and i will absolutely leave if necessary. I wouldn't make a threat i don't fully intend on following through on.

I just want to know if gave him every opportunity to change. That I tried everything I possibly could have before I tear apart our family.

I will have to answer to my children someday and I want them to know I did everything i could have done to keep my family together. If I do that I can walk away without guilt or regret. It may sound ridiculous, but it's what I need to move on.

Clara B · 01-05-2024 9:41am

I appreciate all the comments and advice. They have been extremely helpful.

It's a very confusing time and having children to prioritise makes it even more difficult.

I am so afraid of making the wrong decisions and traumatising our children.

I also know that, if he is willing to put the work into himself and healing there is the possibility of him being part of our lives.

I am not to blame, but I did allow his behaviour to go unchecked, which led to it escalating. I needed to be confident and strong enough to address that. I am so glad I got to that point, with a lot of help.

Since I addressed this with him I have removed his access to my social media. Changed passwords in everything.

Taken control of our children's money. Taken my 1/2 of the proceeds of a house sale.

Set clear boundaries on my right to autonomy and privacy.

Opened a joint account I control for domestic expenses.

Got him to commit to weekly therapy. If he is consistent, I will review after 2 months and might consider couples counselling.

If he does not respect my boundaries it will not be tolerated.

I am done being a door mat and walking on eggshells because he is afraid to face his demons. I refuse to allow the cycle to continue and affect our children.

If he can't do all of this consistently, then I've done everything possible to help him and I will walk away with the kids and never look back.

marilynrr · 01-05-2024 9:53am

I will have to answer to my children someday and I want them to know I did everything i could have done to keep my family together.

Children are far more likely to ask for answers about why their parent didn't leave an abusive situation. You said your daughter already has a very fractured relationship with him and that you can't keep trying to help him at the expense of your kids, but then a day later you're using the kids as an excuse to stay and try again.

It's worrying that you did a complete 180 in a day, you labelled him as a narcissist several times and then minimised by saying he just has some traits but he has loads of good in him.

You described a 'complete loss of privacy, autonomy and freedom' and then detailed the ways in which he isolated you, controlled you and you hinted at sexual abuse, but then you backtrack and say He is not a monster, he is not deceptive or callous and calculating, He is damaged and as a neglected child he had to build a tough exterior and prioritise himself.

Most abusers are damaged in some way and have some kind of back story which will help to explain why they are the way they are, that doesn't mean that they're not abusers though.

Are you still attending therapy yourself?

Clara B · 01-05-2024 10:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084710#Comment_122084710

yes I am, as is our daughter. Doesn't every victim of abuse have trouble even seeing themselves as a victim? Doesn't every victim struggle to understand, make the right decisions and deal with the consequences.

I don't know how to process everything. I don't know what way I will feel this evening never mind tomorrow. I am just trying to come to terms with the fact that I have suffered abuse and not confronted it. I feel so ashamed. I don't need every post I write broken down and analysed. I'm just trying to vent, come to terms with my situation and talk about something deeply personal in a safe space.

marilynrr · 01-05-2024 11:51am

They do but it is still frustrating to see an abuse victim backtrack so quickly and sometimes people will try to give you tough love, sometimes it's needed rather than everyone taking a softly-softly approach which can often be enabling.

People are not trying to break down and analyse your posts to upset you, we just want to help. You're the only one who can help your kids and get them out of this situation. I fully recognise how hard it is to leave an abusive situation, but when there's vulnerable children involved, as I said, it's frustrating and people will keep trying to direct you back to what is best.

Is your daughter in therapy due to her relationship with her dad?

Clara B · 01-05-2024 12:04pm

I get that. I'm not backtracking, I would say it more like spiralling . In the last few days my world has drastically changed and I'm trying to keep going with life while my brain is about to explode. An observer has the benefit of distance that I don't have.

My kids are my priority, so I already know that they have to come first. I'm figuring out how I do that with as much care as possible. I am very aware of the potential trauma they will suffer no matter which route I take.

This, here, is me allowing myself the freedom to say everything out loud. It's a stream of consciousness. I cant make life altering decisions in this moment.
I am a good mother, I will protect my children and do everything necessary to ensure I make the right choices for them.

I'm just dealing with my situation. It's not up to me to be the model abuse survivor. I'm just trying to survive in my own way. That may not conform to expectations, but conforming to other's expectations is what got me here to begin with!

Andrea B. · 02-05-2024 6:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083460#Comment_122083460

Hi. If I did, genuinely sorry for upsetting you. It wasn't the intention.

notAMember · 02-05-2024 2:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083841#Comment_122083841

I will have to answer to my children someday and I want them to know I did everything i could have done to keep my family together.

I've seen this thinking before, it is regularly brought up by narcissists who don't want their spouses to leave them. They often throw heavy scorn on anyone who has had a relationship break up, they perceive a failure if a family is not kept together.

In my opinion this is the opposite way around, in terms of what children need as an answer later in life. It takes huge bravery to see when behaviour is intolerable, and to take steps to protect children from an emotionally damaging parent. Children absolutely recognise this later in life. I know many who thank their parent for taking the steps they did. And I know other children who carry huge amounts of guilt, or even shame, when they see later how isolated and controlled their parent is in later life, because they didn't manage to get out of it when they were younger.

You're right, there is no way to get this choice 100% correct, and there is impact either way. But if thinking your children will blame you for getting away from abuse, rest assured this is really unlikely to be the case.

Purple Mountain · 02-05-2024 7:21pm

OP, personally I think there are too many labels nowadays to explain or attempt to explain people's character.

Replace the term narcissist with abuser or bully and see how you feel about the situation then.

Clara B · 03-05-2024 10:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091273#Comment_122091273

Yes, I agree and when speaking to him I have refrained from using the term narcissistic and used bullying and emotional abuse/manipulation instead . I identify with them more.

I put him on a pedestal, I did that. He enjoyed being there, I fed his ego and allowed him to take advantage of that. I can recognise that I was complicit. That I thought I could fix him and I sacrificed too much at that altar. I wanted to be the white knight.That's huge for me right now. After so long I can see clearly who he is. I can see clearly what its cost me. I don't know much more than that right now, so I'll keep working with my therapist to progress and find the right path.

Clara B · 03-05-2024 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088191#Comment_122088191

Thanks for that. I appreciate it. I am just swimming in shame, doubt and anxiety. I can't deal with judgement too.

herbalplants · 03-05-2024 10:24pm

He will absolutely never get better. Run as fast as you can

I have dealt with few narcissists in my life and read on this subject extensively. Also you will need to heal.

Clara B · 03-05-2024 10:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122095801#Comment_122095801

That's what I'm hearing from every source. It's a realisation I don't know if im really ready for yet.

herbalplants · 03-05-2024 10:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122095818#Comment_122095818

Baby steps.

It is understandable you are not fully ready yet.

Clara B · 03-05-2024 10:54pm

Thanks for recognising that and not judging, you have no idea how much that means.

Alexus25 · 03-05-2024 11:15pm

For any diagnosis, it needs to meet the criteria of the DSM-5 - Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition (or the ICD-10)

NPD (Narcissistic personality disorder) is diagnostically defined in the DSM-5 (APA 2013; pages 669-672) as a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy, with interpersonal entitlement, exploitiveness, arrogance, and envy. Five out of nine of these criteria need to be present to meet the diagnosis of NPD.

The nine criteria are:

DSM 1: Grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievement and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements);

DSM 2: Fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love;

DSM 3: Belief in being “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should be associated with, other special or high-status people (or institutions);

DSM 4: Requires excessive admiration;

DSM 5: Sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations;

DSM 6: Interpersonally exploitive, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his/her own ends;

DSM 7: Lacks empathy; is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others;

DSM 8: Envious of others or believes that others are envious of him/her;

DSM 9: Arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

It's more nuanced than above and will require a fully qualified psychologist (dclinpsy/Doctorate level) or psychiatrist to assess and diagnose

Best of luck

Clara B · 03-05-2024 11:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122095892#Comment_122095892

Thank you. Really appreciate the insight. I have been through this with my therapist and see a lot of similarities in the above with him, but neither she nor I can diagnose him-he will have to seek that out himself. She has just simply voiced her opinion on the information I have provided.

cj maxx · 07-05-2024 3:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058349498/realising-your-with-a-narcissist-who-has-been-covertly-controlling-you-for-20-years

1st if you have any joint bank accounts close it and get your full bank history .

Clara B · 10-05-2024 1:25am

joint account is only for domestic bills. We have separate current accounts and I manage kid's accounts.

Tombo2001 · 05-06-2024 8:29am

Interesting discussion, and lots to ponder on here.

A few points:

In the OP you describe multiple examples of controlling behaviour - you describe this as narcissism. Personally I wouldnt disagree. A number of people have an issue with using 'labels'; however if you are going to call it something, is there a better word? i dont know - regardless of the label, it is the behaviour that matters. People getting het up about what label is used, for me they are missing the point.

Someone brings up that you previously described your mother as a narcissist, I think in a questioning way. It makes sense to me that someone who grows up surrounded by a particular type of behaviour- will see that behaviour as being normal, and not realise that they are going from one controlling situation to another.

I think you seem to feel compelled to 'do something about it' - you dont have to something about it right now, or in the near future. You are in a process of working it out, and perhaps the best you can do for now is give yourself space to think about it.

You seem socially very isolated - something you should think about is how to make connections and re-establish connections with people.

The money thing is challenging, I would guess that any instance of you trying to influence a decision on how money is spent is met with major hassle. Thats tough. Whats his is his, and whats yours is his…..

You'll no doubt feel some level of guilt around your kids; however do remember that you are a loving parent and they will benefit from that.

You have a responsibility to your kids, but dont lose sight of the responsibility you have to yourself. You are entitled to enjoy life too.

If you not already seeing a therapist, then its not a bad idea. You need an outlet.

Hope you well, have a great day.

cj maxx · 07-06-2024 1:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122118917#Comment_122118917

I hope they’re not with the same bank . I discovered my ex , because we had joint account could log in to the account and access mine

Realising your with a narcissist who has been covertly controlling you for 20 years

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