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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #32822
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,041 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090652#Comment_122090652

    Ah here, it's not a distant 4th in Munster. Gaelic Football is an irrelevance outside Kerry and Cork and Hurling is irrelevant in Kerry.

    Also Munster has 3 1A teams. Ulster has 2. Leinster has 5.

    Munster has 4 teams in 1B. Ulster has 1. Leinster has 5.

    Those numbers aren't very different across the provinces.

    Plus there are quite a few players from Munster playing for Dublin clubs. For example, Conor Philips and Luke Clohessy who started for Terenure in the AIL final are from Limerick.



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    #32823
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102838#Comment_122102838

    I don’t really see the point though about the emigration to the UK for university and how it’s impacting Ulster’s player production.

    I looked at this before (would say the post is on the Ulster thread) but over the past decade of Ulster Schools teams or Ulster players who played Irish Schools, I couldn’t find examples in there of good prospects who migrated and were lost.

    Maybe it’s impacting the deeper playing pool at an AIL level, but don’t think there’s much evidence to support a theory that it’s impacting the sort of elite prospects who get Academy contracts.



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    #32824
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102491#Comment_122102491

    we lose out on the late bloomers. As you say, the obvious top talent at school level hangs around.

    It’s the next rung down where we lose out. These are the lads who don’t think they’ll make it as a pro and go over the water.



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    #32825
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    There must be lots of players who have nothing to lose in sticking to rugby while studying in Dublin. If they don't make the grade, no big deal, they'll have taken a chance and will have their preferred degree and get a good job.

    But when you have to make a choice between gambling on making it as a pro (and not getting injured) and doing the college course you want it's a much harder decision.



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    #32826
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Our equivalent of Nick Timoney is in Edinburgh or some such. Or Eric O'Sullivan, who came from playing club rugby at uni in Dublin.



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    #32827
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103389#Comment_122103389

    But Nick Timoney was an underage star representative player for Leinster and Irish underage sides. He wasn’t some nobody who Ulster plucked from obscurity.

    I went through the last decade or so of Ulster players to play Irish schools and couldn’t find examples of players who’d disappeared to colleges in the UK. There isn’t equivalent guys to that who appear to be going, it’s less touted guys.



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    #32828
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Which is what Awec was saying.

    You know who you won't find on an Ulster age grade teams? Stuart McCloskey. Completely unknown at schools level, but went to QUB and continued to play for Dungannon. His Dungannon performances got him into the Academy, and the rest is history. So the question is, how many other Stuart McCloskeys are out there, have we missed out on, because they went to Edinburgh, Manchester or London?

    And I don't think any province could turn their nose up at McCloskey-level players.

    Pickarooney is right as well.



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    #32829
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Right how?

    Who are the players “gambling” on trying to go pro? Are guys turning down academy places with any frequency?

    You’re not pointing to any actual known players who’ve missed out because of this, just hypotheticals. It seems very much overblown to me.



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    #32830
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    It'd be a bit hard to name guys who have never played pro rugby because they chose other paths, in fairness.



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    #32831
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    I think my Stuart McCloskey point was crystal clear. There must be others like him that could be Ulster/Ireland rugby players if they'd gone to uni in NI and continued to play for clubs here, and been discovered after school. But an awful lot go to university across the water and are lost to the system. Unless you think McCloskey is completely unique?

    You don't think it's important unless it's some high-profile, all-conquering, hyped schools player. That's fine. I'm moving on.



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    #32832
    ersatz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭ersatz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105073#Comment_122105073

    But are there lads in the schools and Ireland U18 who are being overlooked or not encouraged to pursue an academy route if they have the ability/potential?



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    #32833
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122104437#Comment_122104437

    Im not sure what the complaint is here, are you trying to say the IRFU should just fund all rugby players to go to Uni in NI in the hope some of them might turn into rugby stars?

    In reality if someone wants to play rugby and go to Uni in England why wouldn't they just play rugby in England? it's not like they are moving to anothers country that has no rugby options.

    If McCloskey went to England he would have played rugby in England, if he done it in QUB then I expect he would of in England. So he would have been picked up anyway but by an English club. IRFU already has a program to identify these types of players in England

    So in the example above McCloskey would still get into the system, if people decide to go to Uni and stop playing rugby, it doesn't matter if they are in Ireland or Timbucktoo

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103232#Comment_122103232

    The same issue happens in Leinster, it was discussed recently and Conan was used as a reference, he has a load of mates who played rugby at schools level etc, once they didn't get an academy spot they just gave up rugby. No AIL or anything, just stopped. The discussion was about how to keep those players in the game.



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    #32834
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090652#Comment_122090652

    This post seems to be full of your own bias and not any actual facts

    Not sure how you can claim in 2024 that rugby is seen in Northern Ireland as a "British Sport"



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    #32835
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105363#Comment_122105363

    I don't know if I'd say it's considered a "British" sport, but here's the wiki of the Ulster Schools Cup. Good luck finding any Catholic schools - grammar or otherwise, taking part The vast majority simply don't play it.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Schools%27_Cup#:~:text=The%20Schools'%20Cup%20has%20the,mounted%20on%20a%20large%20shield.&text=Methodist%20College%20Belfast%20have%20won%20the%20most%20titles%20with%2037%20outright%20wins.



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    #32836
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Here you go. The first Catholic grammar to play in the competition - five years ago. Not win it. Play in it.

    No idea if any have featured since.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50408682



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    #32837
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Realistically, if Ulster rugby want to get to the top of the game they, and the IRFU, need to take a more South African approach and bring rugby to communities that have never had the opportunity or motivation to play it.

    Leaving it to the private schools to provide players is not viable long term.



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    #32838
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105025#Comment_122105025

    Yeah, obviously. But the point remains that the most elite prospects at underage levels are not impacted here. The guys playing underage representative rugby don’t seem to be impacted by this.

    Of course there are some other likely good players out there, but that’s the case for a multitude of reasons across all four provinces.

    I’m not disputing this is something Ulster are slightly impacted by, but I think it’s overblown and not the primary reason for their fall off in player production.



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    #32839
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105639#Comment_122105639

    They have been doing that. Its just not a quick or easy fix.

    Also,these aren't private schools. They're grammar schools. Different beasts, and very different amounts of money sloshing around. I don't now want an argument about that - in just correcting a factual inaccuracy.



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    #32840
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Sorry, I'm not really sure of the difference but as you note yourself it's very much one section of the community playing rugby, not dissimilar to Leinster.



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    #32841
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Id say it's very, very different to Leinster, unless there's a secret religious divide down South I'm unaware of.

    If we agree that both provinces have, as the primary source of players, kids who come through middle-class schools, yes. Up here though, you have to cut the number of well-to-do schools producing players in half before you start looking at it school by school.

    Anyway,onwards and upwards.



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    #32842
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105762#Comment_122105762

    Religion has nothing to do with it.

    It's 2024 and some people seem to be stuck in the past. Yes some people won't play rugby, the same as all across Ireland because they will be "GAA family" or some other sports. The days of religion coming into anything are long gone for the majority.

    It's just the latest in a long long long line of excuses from you. But I hear similar on other forum from Ulster fans who seem content to blame anyone and everyone apart from the people in running Ulster who have made mistake after mistake.



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    #32843
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,440 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105862#Comment_122105862

    Religion has nothing to do with it.

    When the main source of players is from Schools this simply isn't true.



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    #32844
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105877#Comment_122105877

    Religion is going in one direction across all of Ireland, including Northern Ireland.

    Using it as an excuse of how Ulster can't get past the normal schools, is an excuse.

    People don't see rugby as a "British sport", trying to say they don't play it because of religion is also nonsense.



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    #32845
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105862#Comment_122105862

    Aside from how this reads, it's particularly unfair on Paul; he's consistently been very critical of people running things in Ulster. I think you're way off here.



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    #32846
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105900#Comment_122105900

    🤣

    Do you have anything to add on the topic or just another sly little dig at a poster in the hope they react so you can ban them?

    MOD: Warning issued



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    #32847
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,976 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122105893#Comment_122105893

    I agree that religion is on the slide in both Ireland and NI but the culture is still there. Ireland is still culturally Catholic. Just look at all the parents who have baptisms, communions and confirmations for their kids but otherwise never set foot in a church. Or the number of weddings that take place in a church when the couple aren't practicing Catholics.

    I imagine it's the same in the North. Its cultural, not religious.



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    #32848
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122106265#Comment_122106265

    100% YR. Historically, in broad brushstrokes, Catholic grammar schools don't play rugby (and most state secondary schools focus far more on football). It's not about transubstantiation or Mass, it's about the fact that it's never been a part of these schools' cultures. And the Ulster branch is doing work to try to change that (are they doing enough/doing it cleverly? I don't know), but it's a lot harder to change that from outside the schools than inside. They seem to be making more headway in Donegal, particularly around Letterkenny, than Catholic schools in Belfast near Ravenhill.



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    #32849
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107766#Comment_122107766

    Presumably here you're referring to Jordan Larmour being picked to start the Scotland game this year?

    Once again - you're misrepresenting the facts and not removing any semblance of context from the selection. Larmour was already in the wider 6N squad - something he'd earned on merit. He's not a "dirt tracker" at Leinster - he's someone who started 15 games this season, including every single game in the European Cup (where he's scored 4 tries this season). He's had a really solid season and is playing well, and is experienced in the Irish camp where he's earned 32 caps.

    He was picked to start at 15 against Scotland around 2 hours before kick off as Hugo Keenan sustained an extremely late injury in the warm up.

    Even had it been known earlier that week he was injured - there wasn't a multitude of other viable options. Guys like Mack Hansen and Jimmy O'Brien were injured. Mike Haley had been injured for the bulk of the season and had only returned to the Munster side less than a month earlier (he'd played 2 games all season at the time of the Scotland game). Mike Lowry has had a poor season and Tiernan O'Halloran isn't at the level required.

    Who are all the other players if this problem is some prevalent?

    I have no idea what point you're trying to make about Brian Gleeson either.



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    #32850
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,934 ✭✭✭nerd69


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107804#Comment_122107804

    Larmor played 15 he was 4th choice that is a fact, i never said he was a dirt tracker, he earned it by what starting some games? How nice that thats the bar for a leinster player other provinces also have players that have played 15 games this season and played well

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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    #32851
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    If the first three choices are injured then picking the 4th choice makes sense, no?



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