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Tonn Nua wind farm ("the Waterford Coast one")

  • 05-05-2024 7:16pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭


    I'm trying to like it, but:

    Too close to the coast - only 12.5km. That would make it ugly. The other 3 sites look better - much further from the shore.
    No local jobs. Cork Port gets investment instead. Something wrong with our Port I'm not aware of?

    More info on announcement here:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/05/03/new-south-coast-wind-farms-to-be-concentrated-initially-off-waterford-and-wexford/

    Pressure group here contending the importance of having these things further out to sea:
    https://www.bluehorizon.ie/

    Government looking to rubber stamp this pronto - consultation just 6 weeks.

    Anything to like or not?



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    plough on, we have to safe guard our energy needs and clearly get the hell away from fossil fuels asap, not just for the obvious reasons but in order to protect our economy, its clearly obvious that gaining access to fossil fuels is going to become increasingly difficult and more expensive, being as energy independent as possible safe guards us from such, noting, one of the main causes of our recent inflationary issues was in fact our exposure to global energy markets, producing most of our own energy might just prevent such situations in the future, maybe…..



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    Over exposure to wind and solar in Ireland, without a proper sustainable backup (Nuclear) would prove disastrous to Ireland in long periods of low sun / wind. Fossil fuels have a long way to go before the cost / benefit drops below that of wind and solar. There's a reason why developing countries (and China) choose fossil fuels over wind and solar.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    I'm not entirely against it but they should not be visible from the coastline. Once they are built, then we are stuck with them for decades at the very least. They are not to many people's tastes and these concerns should be factored in over the developers.

    I'd also have concerns about their affect on whales in our seas. There's a lot of noise about how they are impacting their health but hard to get the truth as wind turbines (like everything now) have become a bit of a polarised issue. You have one side who wouldn't say a bad word about them if one fell over on their house, killing their entire family and another side that cannot see a single benefit to them at all.

    There are a hell of a lot of downsides to them. For instance, people downplay the intermittent nature of their power generation when availability is the single most important factor of power generation that there is. Nothings black and white though and there are some benefits. It should all come from Port of Waterford though and I think this was even flagged in a government report a while back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    yup, green tech isnt exactly green, but its generally greener than fossil fuels, its a necessary evil, shur ev's aint exactly 100% green either, when you factor in the mining thats required for them, amongst other environmental damage done during their production and maintenance, theres also clearly a problem with our lack of abilities in recycling turbine blades after use….

    yup, id have to agree in regards nuclear, its a great shame we re a very strong anti-nuclear country, its an understandable concern, but being exposed to international fossil fuel markets has already shown to be a major problem for us, and this will likely be more so for the future. its great to see groups such as 18 for 0 trying to change this thinking here, unfortunately this stance means fossil fuels are here to stay, for the reasons you rightfully pointed out



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    If you think exposure to the fossil fuel market is bad wait until you see an energy crisis when the wind doesn't blow for a week in the middle of winter. The country will be brought to a standstill.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    clearly both have issues, wind for technical reasons, but fossil fuels for our pure exposure to markets, as we have just experienced via inflation, its very likely international fossil fuels markets are now gonna be more volatile going forward, therefore possible causing more inflation issues into the future. obviously our recent rapid rise in inflation is actually still hurting many businesses and households, therefore it makes sense to be as energy independent as possible moving into the future, and clearly renewables are really the only game in town, due to our lack of willingness with nuclear

    obviously the way to deal with wind supply issues is simply storage, so get busy building storage capacity….

    im also hoping hydrogen can play a part in all of this in the future, sounds like its got some way to go yet though….



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    How is it energy independence if we have a week long black out due to low winds in January? Any kind of shock that we got from inflationary energy prices over the last few years would pale in comparison to that kind of event. People would die and the economy would crash and I am not being hyperbolic in saying that.

    Also the whole storage thing is simply ridiculous and it should stop being brought up as a credible solution. The costs involved to create enough storage that would last the whole country even a couple of days would be beyond your wildest expectations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    …and once again, 100% energy independence is probably not possible, and probably not a good idea, hence why having external energy supplies need to be included in our future plans, as they currently are, hence why major projects such as interconnects are critically need…..

    …yes you are correct, not maintaining our energy supplies would very likely lead to catastrophic outcomes, as explained, hence the critical element of this issue….

    …we can now clearly see the dangers of prolonged inflationary problems, such situations would more than likely lead to catastrophic social of economic outcomes, i.e. its best we try prevent such outcomes….

    …we re already starting to build storage capacity in the country, with interests growing in approaches including hydrogen, this includes national and international investment and interest groups, so its probably not as dump an idea as suggested….

    …oh and other countries are already ploughing on with their own storage capacities, as could be seen during the recent energy crisis, lpg storage etc, i.e. storage is kinna a good idea, as a protection against volatility…..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,791 ✭✭✭✭JPA


    What are you talking about? Ireland and all of Europe will be inter connected, there will be no reliance on full renewable energy EVER.



  • Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭Dum_Dum_2


    I would be nice to limit this discourse to the local context.

    Only the simplest omadhaun would reject the idea of utilising ample wind resources just off our coast. This would be in the context of a wider diverse (redundant) energy policy.

    The points I was trying to bring attention to are these:

    Why is the Tonn Nua project so much closer to the coast than the other three? Is there a significant advantage to this particular location or are the benefits in terms of power generation and cost just marginal? For example, if the proposed location would only generate 10% more energy than 22km+ further out; well then push it out to the horizon. If the difference is 50%+ then we might have to suffer it.

    I can't see how this would benefit the local economy. Big noises being made about investments and jobs elsewhere. So back to the point above - if we have to suffer it, then why can't they throw the dog a bone?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭Gardner


    12km out ffs. Get the binoculars out lads.

    The human eye can get about 5km so what you will see will be limited enough due to the elevation height of the structure. it wont affect your daily lives, wont affect your walk on the beach. zero impact. it actually should be double the size.

    Download marine tracker app, look for a large container/oil ship 12km out off the coast and that will be your guide of what you will see. big **** drama about nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,798 ✭✭✭Bards


    Have a read of this article and come back to us

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259431883_RESEARCH_ARTICLE_Offshore_Wind_Turbine_Visibility_and_Visual_Impact_Threshold_Distances



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭tphase


    The human eye can see a lot further than 5km . Have a look at the photomontages of what the Sceirde rocks wind farm willl look like ... those turbines will be 5 to 10km offshore https://tours.innovision.ie/v/531BlYOrjBL



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    The wind farm in Brighton is 13.2 km from the coast and they are very visible. The ones going off the coast of Waterford will also almost certainly be higher than those turbines.

    So closer + bigger = very visible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭Gardner


    Get a grip lads ffs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭tphase


    @Gardner no indication of the size of the turbines in your picture

    wingtip on the Sceirde rocks turbines is at 310m



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭Gardner


    Croaghnakeela Island, St. Macdara’s Island, Mason Island is inhabitable, and there's a few auld B&B's on Mweenish Island. tis nearly 10/12km to the mainland from wind farm. doesn't put in or out on anyone. The bigger the better and hopefully they build hundreds more around the coast of Ireland. hopefully lower the price of electricity in the medium/long term.



  • Registered Users Posts: 46 corollake35


    Or, make a select few very rich.

    Very seldom does something like this benefit our pockets.

    Not against it at all in principal, but everyone should have the right to query this in whatever way they want.

    Trust among the Irish population is non existent, and rightly so. Just because someone says hit the green button for go doesn't mean you blindly have to do it.

    Before reading this thread, this wasn't even really on my radar, so all comments should be welcome, and not attempted to be shut down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭Daniel son


    I think they look good. Should be all around the coast



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭tphase


    more like 5km to the mainland from the nearest turbine, 10km from the furthest



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    How has no one woken up to this total myth yet? The data is in and so far shows that they make electricity more expensive not cheaper.

    They have benefits but if you are hoping they will lower your electricity bill, then you are mistaken.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    Put them far enough so they are out of site and everyone is happy. It might hurt the economics a bit but they can't have it all their way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭JimWinters


    It’s interesting to see the ESB’s visualisations vs reality on this one. I’m not against the wind farm, I am against companies maximising profits to the detriment of the entire stretch of coastline.
    The water is only 5-10 meters deeper at 20kms out, not a whole lot of extra cost/effort but they’ll put them as close to shore as possible to save money.

    For reference, Hook lighthouse is about 5k from Dunmore and is 35 meters high, it can definitely be seen from Dunmore. These turbines will be nine times the height. Now picture rows and rows of them all along the coast between 5 and 10km from shore. They will be very visible…



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal



    Maybe if we subsidised sun/wind as much as we do fossil fuels then we'd level the playing field.


    Fossil fuels being subsidised at rate of $13m a minute after all - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/aug/24/fossil-fuel-subsidies-imf-report-climate-crisis-oil-gas-coal



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Are you talking about nuclear or renewable, because nuclear has proven it doesn't make cheap electric and it has many other issues.

    You've mentioned it a few times but realistically even if we started to scope nuclear tomorrow it would be 20 years before you'd see an operational plant if you are lucky. Why? It takes 6-8 years to actually build a plant, but add to that the massive consultation, the court cases, the appeals, the massive protests, nobody wanting it next to them, the huge costs over runs etc. It would be politically toxic for any party to touch.

    Your whole argument about wind now blowing is nonsense, while we are an island geograpghically we are not an island when it comes to interconnectivity of our energy network. Wind turbines are certainly part of the overall solution for Ireland but so is massive solar rollout to homes across the entire country.

    Every roof in Ireland that can have solar should have solar, you add battery's into the mix and a large amount of premises throughout Ireland would actually be totally self sfficent and would actually make money selling to the grid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    Nuclear is by far the best option and isn't it fantastic that we are on the cusp of Small Modular Reactors. These will be revolutionary until we crack fusion. In my opinion these will mean the end of wind power generation (for any country with the sense to install them).

    As for Nuclear being more expensive, can you point me to where you are getting your data showing that European countries with installed nuclear capacity pay more per kwh. Of the 13 countries in Europe with Nuclear plants, 10 of those have relatively cheap electricity prices.

    In fact Germany is a perfect modern european example of disastrous anti nuclear/fossil fuel ideology in favour of intermittent renewable sources.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    unfortunately i just cant ever see nuclear here in ireland in my lifetime, possibly in 50 -100 years, but not anytime soon….

    …so we ll just have to accept renewables along side fossil fuels….



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    All because we let the loud minority of anti-nuclear idiots dictate the energy policy of the country. They have kept us away from the best all round energy source currently available.

    Yes its not perfect (there is no perfect source of energy) but on balance it is head and shoulders above the other options that we currently have at our disposal.

    I just hope that the Irish public might be more accepting of the Small Modular Reactors, otherwise Ireland is in big trouble energy wise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭Asdfgh2020


    Do these new ‘modular nuclear reactors’ have a new way of dealing with the ‘spent nuclear fuel ’ which has ‘half lifes’ of 1000’s of years….other than the deep burying of it as with the current plants?

    Also describing people opposed to nuclear power generation as ‘anti nuclear idiots’ is both arrogant and offensive…what are the advantages of SMR’s over the larger ones, very little if any based on a quick google of them but maybe you can enlighten us all

    Post edited by Asdfgh2020 on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 774 ✭✭✭Dunmoreroader


    Why is Cork port getting all the business associated with these wind farms off Waterford & Wexford? Are Port of Waterford and Rosslare not suitable?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ..as others have pointed out, using such terms isnt actually helpful in the arguments for, the push back over nuclear is completely understandable, and if we are to ever convince people of the benefits, we must consider their concerns, insults wont work!

    as groups such as 18 for 0 have pointed out, this is deeply embedded into our polices, so much so, its currently impossible for us to even consider this option, and these polices will need to be changed if we are to…..

    the two polices 18 for 0 believe are preventing us from moving forward, 1999 Electricity Regulation Act and 2006 Strategic Infrastructure Act, these are clearly very fundamental polices that were clearly implemented following Chernobyl….

    https://www.18for0.ie/

    this is far more complicated than you say, far more….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    Nuclear has a lot of costs which are shuffled into places other than the price per kWh. Just look at the state of Hinkley Point C.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    setup costs are off the walls alright, particularly for countries that dont have any history of its use, so all the basic infrastructure needed would need to be created, i.e. extremely expensive….



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    And the wind may be blowing a gale in the middle of the night when you don't need it and not blowing at all when you do need it.

    People quite rightly debate the downsides of other of other sources of power generation but quite often give a pass to renewables because they are convinced it is the right thing to do.

    As for costs, the hope would be that these could be dramatically reduced with modular reactors.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    Hold on, you did a quick search and couldn't find any benefits? None at all? Sounds like you are ideologically opposed to nuclear and nothing will change your mind.

    They cut down on two of the biggest problems with Nuclear - construction time and cost.

    In relation to the fuel. Every method of power generation has it's downsides. The amount of waste is actually quite small. All the nuclear waste in the USA from one year would fit on a soccer pitch up to a height of about 3 metres. For what Ireland requires, it would even generate that much waste in 20 years.

    On balance nuclear is the best off all generation methods.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    renewables are really the only game in town for countries such as ours, i.e. countries that dont have a history of the usage of sources such as nuclear, again its not just a cost problem, its actually the fact nuclear simply isnt widely accepted here as a possibility, most would object to its introduction here, best of luck with trying to get the production of a reactor here, it currently simply wouldnt happen, it would just be knocked about in debates and possibly in the courts, with nothing actually happening on the ground. again the policies previously mentioned completely block state bodies from even considering this source, so the state cant even look into it at present, not even at the most basic levels…..



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    Well then the Irish people should just accept some of the most expensive electricity prices in Europe and masses of wind turbines off the coast. Last time I checked, we are third most expensive in Europe despite people thinking renewables would make electricity cheaper. If people want to include battery storage in this (this is genuinely laughable due to the costs involved) then costs will sky rocket further.

    We can't have our cake and eat it. That is a fact in all walks of life, especially when it comes to electricity generation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ..i do think we re moving into a more expensive era in energy, largely due to the sheer physics involved, fossil fuels are simply more energy dense than others, excluding nuclear, im not convinced renewables will reduce our energy bills, yes im aware costs have been falling in regards to renewables, but…..

    humans nearly always want our cake, we re just wired that way, this will help to keep pushing prices down, but…..

    …but i do think its critical we become as energy independent as possible, as i suspect getting access to energy is gonna become very complicated, and those complications could very well be far more dangerous than anything else…

    …and at the moment, the only way to truly do that is renewables, with all their faults and issues….



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I love how you've completely ignored my comments about solar and its place in Ireland.

    On cheaper electric claim, back of a packet maths,
    UK is only 6c cheaper per KW then Ireland, not exactly ground breaking stuff and the avg UK person wouldn't consider it relatively cheap. Avg in EU is around 30c mark or slightly below (after taxes).

    Where do you propose Ireland disposes of nuclear waste?

    Cusp of small modular reactors, great. So 20-30 years from now you'll see them on a commercial basis. Thats too late. We have to shift away from fossil fuel now, not 5 years from now, not 10 not 20. Now.

    Honestly, given your attack on wind and your ignoring of comments about solar its clear you just have an agenda against wind generation. wind generation has its place in Ireland, we'd be stupid not to use this natural and renewable resource.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭Asdfgh2020


    yeah would be fundamentally against nuclear power generation bar ‘cold fusion’ or some other type of ‘fusion’.. any advantages of ‘nuclear fission’ are outweighed by the treatment of the ‘waste’….and the risk of it getting into the wrong hands…..rouge dictators etc etc



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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    On the subject of Nuclear in Ireland, lets look to our nearest neighbours who started Hinkley Point in 2017 to see how things are going, they are after all experienced with nuclear power.

    After delay, after delay, after delay and numerous cost overruns its pegged to be operation in 2028.

    It was supposed to cost just under 13billion, but its now projected to be 25-26billion….with some projects being over 40billion.

    Ireland doing nuclear would make the national childrens hospital build cost look like a serious bargain!



    On the subject of those modular reactors, it seems there's a fair few issues with them.

    "The Royal Institution of Australia is a national non-profit hub for science communication, publishing the science magazine Cosmos four times a year.

    This month they argued that small modular nuclear reactors "don't add up as a viable energy source."Proponents assert that SMRs would cost less to build and thus be more
    affordable.
    https://cosmosmagazine.com/science/engineering/small-reactors-dont-add-up/

    However, when evaluated on the basis of cost per unit of
    power capacity,
    SMRs will actually be more expensive than large reactors. This 'diseconomy of scale' was demonstrated by the now-terminated proposal to build six NuScale Power SMRs (77 megawatts each) in Idaho in the
    United States. The final cost estimate of the project per megawatt was
    around
    250 percent more than the initial per megawatt cost for the 2,200 megawatts Vogtle nuclear power plant being built in Georgia, US. Previous small reactors built in various parts of America also shut down because they were uneconomical.

    The cost was four to six times the cost of the same electricity from wind and solar photovoltaic plants, according to estimates from the Australian Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research
    Organisation and the Australian Energy Market Operator.

    "The money invested in nuclear energy would save far more carbon dioxide if it were
    instead invested in renewables," the article agues:Small reactors also raise all of the usual concerns associated with nuclear power, including the risk of severe accidents, the linkage to nuclear weapons proliferation, and the production of radioactive waste that has no demonstrated solution because of technical and social challenges. One 2022 study calculated that various radioactive waste streams from SMRs would be larger than the corresponding waste streams from existing light water
    reactors...

    Nuclear energy itself has been declining in importance as a source of
    power: the fraction of the world's electricity supplied by nuclear
    reactors has declined from a
    maximum of 17.5 percent in 1996 down to 9.2 percent in 2022.
    All indications suggest that the trend will continue if not accelerate.
    The decline in the global share of nuclear power is driven by poor
    economics: generating power with nuclear reactors is
    costly compared to other low-carbon, renewable sources of energy and the difference between these costs is widening.

    "

    "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭Asdfgh2020


    I’m sure Deiseen will came back with a strong rebuttal of your research



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 774 ✭✭✭Dunmoreroader


    So if you're all finished discussing Nuclear, may I redirect back to the subject of this thread and the issues raised by Dum Dum 2;

    1. It's too close to shore considering how large turbines are getting year on year, the visual impact will be devastating and detrimental to local tourism, to mention just one negative, and
    2. all the economic benefits will land in Cork https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/companies/arid-41393908.html despite Port of Waterford showing capability in handling wind turbines and plans for expansion to facilitate greater capacity https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/companies/arid-41340200.html

    So is this another iteration of Waterford getting screwed by Cork and its flag flyers in Government? They get the economic benefit in Cork Port whilst being able to sail their yachts out of Crosshaven without having to look at the big ugly yokes foisted on the usual suckers in the Southeast with their 2nd-class Uni and no-flights airport?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    …are humans truly put off by such things, would it truly have a detrimental effect on tourism, and other economic activities?

    im some how seriously doubt it, as such supplies of energy are clearly gradually become the norm around the world….

    i think this visual hysteria is a bit over played….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭Asdfgh2020


    The ‘L@ngers’ will end up with wind turbines off their coast also eventually…..also why da eff are the local roundabouts on the n25 bypass getting amended….? Answer……to enable the onward transport of the massive wind turbines coming into waterford port….!

    Post edited by Asdfgh2020 on


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal



    I find the points unusual, surely point 1 trumps point 2?
    In which case why are you arguing about any loss to Waterford Port? Isin't point 1 a big enough reason to be against them on its own?

    If Waterford Port benefitted would you suddenly ignore your first point?

    Just seems odd you've made two points which are somewhat counter to eachother.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 774 ✭✭✭Dunmoreroader


    No, I'm all for Offshore wind energy being exploited but not at the expense of our costal visual amenity being degraded. The more I read up on this, the more convinced I am that no way they should be starting at just 12km out. The technology is evolving rapidly and the floating turbines can be anchored in 1km+ deep waters which are much further out.

    There should be a sliding scale height restriction based on how for offshore they are into a minimum 25km offshore, which seems to be the industry standard now.

    I'd have no problem with Cork Port getting all the business if the Southeast ports were incapable of servicing this sector but that clearly isn't the case but will the business get routed there due to biased government ministers ensuring it so. Like that never happened before.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    you ve good arguments, but the reality is, are we truly willing to pay more for our energy, id imagine there are good studies out there on the costs involved in moving further out to sea, do you know of any?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭Iwastimthe


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/companies/arid-41390926.html

    Things may not necessarily be going all Corks way!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    …not that surprised, it sounds like its very difficult to actually make money outta this industry, higher interest rates seem to hurt the industry really badly, i was at a talk about this a few months ago, tricky stuff…



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