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Air Corps SAR

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    SDCC have requested more Information on the Weston Base inculding operating hours.

    This in theory could drag on after the contract starts but there is nothing stoping them using the existing hangar and dropping a few site offices to get them going.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,379 ✭✭✭davetherave


    In fairness to the council, the requests for additional info do seem reasonable.


    1. Permitted Usage The applicant is requested to specify the existing operating hours for air traffic at Weston Airport. It is noted the proposed facility is likely to accommodate 550 to 580 flights per annum which equates to less than 2.7% of the total permitted annual movements. The applicant is requested to specify the proposed operating hours for air traffic relating to maintenance, repair and overhaul associated with the proposed development and indicate what proportion of the projected flights are associated with this element of the proposals. While noting the demand-led nature of providing an emergency service, the applicant is also requested to specify the proposed operating hours for air traffic associated the emergency service and indicate how air traffic associated with this element of the proposals is likely to be spread across a typical 24-hour period and a typical week. This information is requested to help assess the impact the increased usage level and having regard to concerns raised by third-parties.


    1. Public Safety Zones The subject site is located within the Public Safety Zones of Weston Airport. It is not, however, clear whether the proposed development is located within the Inner and/or Outer Public Safety Zones of Weston Airport. The applicant is requested to clarify this and compliance with Policy IE14: Public Safety Zones and its Objectives under the South Dublin County Development Plan 2022-2028.


    1. Signage The applicant is requested to submit additional information in relation to the proposed signage at the site entrance, including dimensions and materials. The Planning Authority would consider that the provision of 2 no. site entrance signs could lead to visual clutter and the proposed signage should therefore be reviewed in this context. 


    1. The proposed access to the site would be via the existing emergency airside access from the R403 Celbridge Road. This existing access from R403 Celbridge Road was permitted for supplementary accident and emergency access/egress use only under Reg. Ref. SD08A/0729 & ABP Ref. PL06S.233306. This was in the interests of the orderly development of Weston Airport and traffic safety. There is a 6-year road proposal objective along R403 Celbridge Road and 6-year road proposal objectives (under the South Dublin County Development Plan 2022-2028) joining this road in proximity to the access, including the new L2010 Cellbridge Link Road. The Roads Department and the Planning Authority would have concerns that the permanent use of this access could prejudice the future delivery of these roads objectives.

    In fairness you can't go around turning what is an emergency access point into an active entrance/exit point.


    1. . Car Parking The applicant is requested to submit details on the number of workers/staff and daily visitors to the development, along with a reduced car parking numbers based on active travel and public transport

    This was given in the traffic plan in the original documentation. 18 office staff working 0900-1700, and 6 crew on a 24 hour 1300-1330. SDCC rules allowed them to have up to 28 parking spaces based on the 6 bedrooms, 1 car each, 1 parking space per 100sqm of Warehousing (1100sqm), and 1 parking space per 50sqm of office (550).


    1. Surface water, foul water, drainage water, engineering reports: This seems like something that should have been provided in the required format to begin with


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Sometimes when doing a planning app if there is a chance that there may be submissions that could cauuse you issues the consulatant will not put all the info in. That way the LA will show there hand in what information they want you can go back with a responce that covers all the questions.

    In five years we might see air corps PC24s in the SAR colours



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    CHC are not giving up yet on the SAR Contract. There is an interesting aspect of the latest legal challenge they are bringing.

    They are claiming issues on the shannon base and the wages versus the contract price. I hope eamon ryans minnions have done everything by the book or it could cost the state a lot of money.


    Post edited by roadmaster on


  • Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭vswr


    I doubt they have, there were a lot of cracks in the process which assumed CHC would just bend over and release the contract.

    Government were quite deriding about CHC losing to Bristow, FAFO I suppose.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    In the Irish Times Article about the latest CHC court Case they state the following

    CHC also claims the modifications mean Bristow is no longer required to operate the service from Shannon Airport as of October 31st next

    Does that mean Bristow are looking at a possabile different base or are CHC just mudding the water?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    CHC mudding the water, of course.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Bristows Agent have lodged the responce to the FI for the Weston Base. A answer is due by the end of the month. I was suprised with some of the Noise responces as they referenced the UK alot such as HS2.

    I know from previous planning apps i have been involved in that can be a fatal move as it can leave a door open to a challenge as you are not showing like for like in Ireland. I can see this heading for the High Court if it is granted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Would UK SAR T&Cs be much different to what the new Irish Bristow Staff will be getting?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-68970435



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Yes, because the UK is no longer bound by EU regulations on working conditions.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    You would think with worldwide shortage of people with that skillset that they would have top terms. Ah well thats Brexit You reap what you sow



  • Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭vswr


    This is an ongoing dispute rather than a Brexit issue (although, wouldn't surprise me if Bristow pulled the Brexit card).

    Below inflation or no pay rise at all for years, part reasons given previously was due to Bristow's cashflow issues (which are non existent now)

    Working time directive (EU) remains relatively intact in the new post Brexit regulations (UK pretty much did a copy and paste, with some amendments). I'd imagine most in Bristow wave the WTD in their employment contract, but, flight crew are subject to legislation by the CAA which supersedes the WTD and any wavers which limits work hours for safety reasons.

    While there is a skills shortage, not everyone wants to (or can) up sticks and move to pastures better.

    UK based pilots can do a few weeks on/off out of hubs for offshore work, UKCG pilots can live down the road from the base. One of the local pilots lived down the road from us and made a point of doing circles over his house anytime they were on training.

    I could probably do about 6-8 months in the Gulf and come back debt free…. I'm not allowed though :-D



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Psychlops




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Interestly SDCC have agreed with all the measures and projections that Bristows Agents have said about Noise and are happy to go with it. TII how ever are not happy with the roadlayout for the new base and are not backing down.

    From a cost point of view its a wonder bristow didnt set up the overhaul base in shannon where there is plenty of room and no need to build new facilitys and then just use the existing weston facilites. They probably wouldnt even need planning then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    TII don't have a veto over the planning. They always like to to try to prevent any intensification of developments within a couple of kilometres of their precious national routes, but suggesting the SAR base constitutes a significant intensification of an existing private airport, would be a stretch



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Nothing wrong with leaving it in Dublin, purpose built hangers already there literally brand new at the SAR apron, stupid to move for an international all weather airport that has all facilities needed to serve all weather SAR.



  • Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭vswr


    Dual runway ops though makes expedited transit a bit of a pain. Even cross wind runway ops is a pain to transit for anything around Howth. Weston is the better option IMO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    If only there was another airport in Dublin that could accommodate 24 hr rotary wing operations….with a history of operating SAR helicopters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭roadmaster




  • Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭vswr


    All that experience and they still struggled to meet contractual obligations to staff rotary and fixed ops on numerous occasions.

    Best steer clear ;-)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    DOD have stuck there oar in now as well.

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I write with regard to the above planning application by Weston Aviation Academy Ltd.

    for a proposed Search and Rescue (SAR) hangar on lands forming part of Weston

    Airport,

    Location: Lands forming part of Weston Airport, at Celbridge Road, Backweston,

    Lucan, Co. Dublin, W23 XHF8.

    Following consultations with our Air Corps colleagues at Casement Aerodrome,

    The Department of Defence would like to make the following observation:

    To request that a full aeronautical assessment by the applicant is provided to

    ascertain potential impact on the Irish Air Corps operations. In particular, we

    would request an assessment of the safety and operational effects of the

    operation of a 24 hours civil aerodrome with priority emergency traffic in

    respect of the activity of the Defence Forces at Casement Aerodrome.


    Please contact me if you have any queries in this regard



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,974 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Its easy to forget that the two airfields are less than 5km apart at their nearest points, as the crow flies.

    But it is pretty surprising that it has taken until this deep into the p for these concerns to arise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,023 ✭✭✭10-10-20


    It's the addition of a 24hr SAR from an airfield already operating as a light aircraft airport, not a new terminal for Ryanair. Seems a bit over the top to me, but what would I know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    If DUB, which does operate 24H, is able to handle the SAR operations despite almost constant line traffic, it's hard to see how it would have a serious impact on Baldonnel, all things considered.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The residents around Weston may also have another problem. The HSE fixed wing air ambulance which is currently been evaluated states that it must be ready 2 go 24/7 from a Dublin Airport so they may have a Business Jet taking off at 3am in the morning as well as an AW189



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    It's currently a Beech 200 based at DUB, on rotation from the UK.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Bristows Planning has been delayed further as SDCC are now looking for looking for clarfications on the information supplied to them. Noise, Flightpaths, operating hours all issues. Currently weston is 8 to 8 only.

    The section related to the Air Corps

    It is noted that the Department of Defence have submitted an observation requesting a full
    aeronautical assessment to ascertain the potential impact on the Irish Air Corps operations. In
    particular, an assessment of the safety and operational effects of the operation of a 24 hour civil
    aerodrome with priority emergency traffic in respect of the activity of the Defence Forces at
    Casement Aerodrome. This should also be addressed.

    Post edited by roadmaster on


  • Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭vswr


    zero, zilch, nothing… bar GASU, which would be tactically managed as usual by Dublin Tower.

    Are they going to try argue they will be flying the Casa or PC-9's at 1000ft around Weston?

    How do they even manage current S-92 ops if this is an issue :-D



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I belive 2excel are struggling for staff for shannon what ever has happened. I presume they will just have to pull staff from the UK if they dont have all the posts filled in Q4. I was told that by someome close to CHC so could be just bitterness



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭EchoIndia




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