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The National Party

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,356 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Thats just ignorant. Fascism is an ideology not an era in right wing politics. Fascism is just as relevant a term today as it ever was.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on




  • I didn't say the term wasn't relevant, I argued that the National Party is more accurately described as far-right / nationalist.

    The leap to neo-fascism doesn't work for the reasons I outlined in my previous post.

    Far-right nationalism and fascism are not synonymous terms.

    If you are going to argue that the National Party are "neo-fascist", you'd need to supply evidence that they align with what I listed above — namely:

    a dictatorial leader / centralized autocracy

    militarism / positive view of violence in political pursuits / expansion of the nation into empire

    forcible suppression of all political opposition parties

    belief in a master race / racial superiority

    economic self-sufficiency / autarky

    Not a sleight-of-hand version of one or two, but actual policies stated by the National Party that align with all the above.

    Do you have that evidence?

    If not, then perhaps we should agree that far-right nationalism is a more accurate description.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Leaving aside your misunderstanding of what fascism is or how the NP's eleven principals do appear to align against your 1930s list, I note that "Revival of the Irish language" is a core principal of theirs and important enough to them to place it #2 in their list of eleven principals.

    Why then is their website not available through Irish?

    They have a link to www.pairtinaisiunta.ie on their website but this does not work.

    It's like they haven't considered their list properly!

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on




  • Oh I agree with you on the language point.

    I'm certainly not here to defend the National Party.

    They're a party of clowns as far as I'm concerned, with not an ounce of wider public support in the country.

    But that doesn't mean we can casually throw around terms like fascism, or to dilute what fascism actually means.

    Fascism is many times more in magnitude worse than what the National Party currently sells itself to be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,773 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Well, if you've read Litler's admiring essay on the Führerprinzip, you'll have no difficulty ticking the first box. And his comment about the Brownshirts will enable you tick the second and boxes.

    Etc, etc. It's really not difficult to make the case that the NP is a consciously fascist-inspired and fascist-emulating movement. And I'm a firm believer in the principle that, when people show you who they are, you should believe them. At this point they've got themselves into a position where it's really up to them to convince me that they are not fascists. They're making no effort do do that. And I have a pretty shrewd idea as to why.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    How about this?

    They are a Far right/Nationalist party populated by people with a very strong affinity to Nazi leaders of the past , what with Justin Barrett and his clearly stated admiration of Adolf Hitler( not to mention his cos-playing) and James Reynolds and his "fondness for Mussolini" .

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on




  • That's exactly the kind of nonsense I would expect to hear from a far-right nationalist party.

    More importantly, James Reynolds amassed a grand total of 1.73% (983 votes) for Longford-Westmeath in the 2020 General Election.

    So no matter what label we agree on, the wider public have no interest in the party policies whatsoever.

    They're a political irrelevance; a bunch of deluded clowns — and that will remain permanent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,356 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Thats not remotely the same as saying they aren't a party based firmly on fascist principles. They are dangerous because their public profile enables those fascist elements of our society who would happily murder immigrants and transgender people in the name of their fascist beliefs.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on




  • How many National Party members in this country have explicitly murdered immigrants and transgender people in this country on the specific basis of "their fascist beliefs"?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,356 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Assaults on immigrants and LGBT people have gone through the roof recently, so don't try to claim that these people aren't dangerous.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,356 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Fascists walk this land and it's time that people on the right stopped defending them and called them out for what they are.





  • Assaults on everyone has increased through the roof, including against tourists.

    So that aside, you made a claim regarding National Party members, "their fascist beliefs" leading to the "murder of immigrants and transgender people".

    I'll therefore ask again:

    How many National Party members in this country have explicitly murdered immigrants and transgender people in this country on the specific basis of "their fascist beliefs"?

    If the answer is zero, it would be worth admitting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    have they ? or are they just more eagerly reported and recorded in a different way now ?

    can you post some decent stats ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,356 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Why are you defending people who openly holdFascist beliefs ?

    What's in it for you ?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,843 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    You're assuming that they oppose fascism, though. Most people don't follow politics so they probably don't even know that the various fascist groups even exist. The right wing people that do tend to be at least sympathetic in my experience. They're too craven to admit it openly so they'll say stuff like voting NP to give the big guys a shake or to protest because they can't talk about immigration while never shutting up about immigration.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,356 ✭✭✭Shoog






  • I didn't.

    What I did was ask a very specific question, twice — and answer there came none.

    The reason the question hasn't been directly answered is because it directly contradicts your claim, as well you know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,356 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Did Hitler actually kill anyone with his own hands. No he enabled a killing machine to kill millions.

    I know you don't agree with the hate crimes legislation but it is designed to deal with enablers of violence - people like Barret. Words have consequences.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    ya thats why asked you to post the stats ,

    also , the recording of what constitutes a hate crime is biased on some very flimsy reasoning. ie if some one passing by feels it is a hate crime or someone who sees it in a video later feels its a hate crime thats how its recorded.

    i have first had experience where intoxicated two gay men having a domestic both requested that it be recorded as a hate crime so it was .

    that's what i meant about the reporting and recording





  • You first evaded my question by referencing "fascists are walking this land", as if there is an army on the horizon; and have now compared James Reynolds — who amassed 900 votes 2-years ago in Longford-Westmeath — with Hitler leading to the deaths of tens of millions of Europeans.

    Have you any idea how ridiculous this all sounds?

    I'll leave this line of argument there as I think your points are self-discrediting at this stage. They require no further rebuttal from me.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,356 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The increase is in actual assaults. It's not just hate speech that on the increase it's actual violence against prescribed groups.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,356 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Fascists are a threat to everyone and the fact that their gaining support in this land should be a concern to you - but evidently it's not.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭mikethecop






  • You'll need to provide a citation for the "fact" that National Party polling has "gained support" in this country.

    If it's a "fact", you should be able to supply that polling data.

    Or is it a case, as I described before, that this is a phantom threat that doesn't exist in the real world outside social media echo-chambers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,619 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,759 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    This is absolute nonsense. There is no expiry date on fascism. They are fascists.

    The number of votes he got is of absolutely no relevance as to whether he is a fascist or not. It's his views and utterances and actions.

    If he got 5000 votes would you be willing to admit he was a fascist? It's a nonsensical claim on your part that electoral failure makes a fascist not a fascist somehow.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on

    Scrap the cap!





  • That's not what the user claimed.

    Of course extremes along the political axis engage in acts of senseless violence. Of that there is no doubt. But the user made a specific claim about the murder of immigrants and transgender people by members of the National Party.

    There is no evidence to substantiate that baseless claim.

    Nor is there evidence to sustain that claim that support for the National Party is rising. I asked for evidence for that, and evidence there came none.

    Whilst I'm all for condemning the National Party and even ridiculing it, it doesn't mean that baseless claims can be made at the same time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,169 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    For someone who claims to condemn and ridicule the National Party you are spending a lot of time defending them.
    You have defined fascism within narrow, time bound ,parameters to support your argument.
    It’s all rather strange.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on




  • I'm not "defending" the National Party.

    I made a very elementary point — namely, that the threat from the National Party is being deliberately exaggerated.

    This exaggeration is often made through false, misleading, or embellished statements:

    • We were told that members of the National Party are engaging in the murder of immigrants and transgender people.
    • We were told that support for the National Party has risen.

    I merely requested evidence that support these claims because unless we want to believe anything anyone says without evidence, then we need to see the evidence. If you want to believe the above two statements without a shred of evidence, that is your right. I'm going to wait until the evidence actually surfaces before believing those claims.

    And to request evidence for a claim isn't to defend the target of the claim. That is fallacious reasoning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,687 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Fascism existed long before and long after the time frame you mention.

    What you have here is a list of characteristics of a specific fascist regime - the Nazi regime in Germany - rather than the broader characteristics of fascism.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,687 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    He killed Hitler to be fair. Also, his dog, if accouts are accurate.

    This is one of the arguments against the death penalty: if Hitler is responsible for deaths he ordered even if he didn't carry out the actual killing himself, so is every judge who ever handed down a death-sentence.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.





  • As is often the case, I think George Orwell had it right when it comes to the post-war use of the term "fascism" (and other political language):

    Many political words are similarly abused. The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable’. The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice, have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of régime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using that word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different. Statements like Marshal Pétain was a true patriot, The Soviet press is the freest in the world, The Catholic Church is opposed to persecution, are almost always made with intent to deceive. Other words used in variable meanings, in most cases more or less dishonestly, are: class, totalitarian, science, progressive, reactionary, bourgeois, equality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,687 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    This is just opnion though - and to a certain extent, I agree with him - but none of it is relvelant to the defintion of the word "fascism". He's just commenting on the useage of it.

    FWIW - I think the NP stops short of fascism for now - but I'd well believe them to be capable of it if they ever got into power. Thankfully, it's not something we're ever likely to find out.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,356 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The mental contortions not to admit that Fascism is an active force in the world today. I would argue that Trump has set out an agenda for American Fascism in his declarations regarding another term in office. This is what the Republican party has been steering towards right back to Bush Senior and his penchant for associating with fascistic groups who he willingly allowed to campaign for him (until they were found out). They cloth themselves in the cross but scratch the surface and they are white supremacists with an authoritarian theocratic agenda. The worst thing is that they are financing right wing groups across the world and even here in Ireland.

    Fascism is an ever present threat to democracy and life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,743 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    It's a bit weird when the thread is getting to a point of being picky about neo Nazi versus Nazi etc. Regardless, they represent a worship of fascistic and Nazi ideals.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,843 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It's the usual strategy. Defend fascism without admitting to defending fascism. I've seen various attempts at this and they're all laughably pathetic.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,687 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I just like to the terms right :) -just because someone isn't a nazi or a neo-nazi doesn't mean they're therefore NOT a fascist. Very important disctinction that needed to be made.

    Someone mentioend Trump and the rhetoric he's coming out with a the moment is certainly heading that way.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.





  • FWIW - I think the NP stops short of fascism for now - but I'd well believe them to be capable of it if they ever got into power. Thankfully, it's not something we're ever likely to find out.

    That's all I am arguing.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    So , do we wait for them to become full blown Nazis before getting concerned or do we seek to ensure that never happens now by not allowing them to pretend to be something different to garner electoral support??

    Given the recent immigration protests etc. there is a cohort of people that may not be Nazis but are open to the idea of a strong anti-immigrant viewpoint so if we allow the National Party to claim that ground we are giving them the chance at an electoral foothold.

    That needs to be prevented , simple as that.

    There are many ways to do a better job with Immigration that don't involve giving xenophobic proto-Nazis a chance at getting elected.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,497 ✭✭✭francois


    This makes me laugh, what a pathetic man





  • The only way to stop the National Party claiming the immigration problem is by addressing the immigration problem itself.

    In the UK, the BNP were the original receptacle for voters concerned with immigration. When a more moderate party came along, in the form of UKIP — without the extremist, racial dimension — it bled the BNP of their voter base and they went into decline. The BNP, through exposure on Question Time, further discredited the party as they were exposed for what they are and voters reacted accordingly.

    I suggest we react in the same way with the National Party i.e. reclaim the migration issue by actually reacting to voter concerns and second to that, to allow the National Party to discredit themselves in the same way the BNP managed to do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,356 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The BNP effectively ceased to exist back in the 1990s, it had nothing to do with UKIP.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on




  • You're wrong.

    The BNP were wiped out in the 2014 European Elections, securing only 1% of the vote — down from 6% in 2009. UKIP destroyed the BNP and discredited it. When a reasonable party exists to address voter concerns, those voters stop opting for the most extreme parties.

    If the same mistake is made in this country, it will inevitably lead to an increase in the vote for the National Party.

    I certainly do not want that outcome, hence my argument that migration as an issue must be handled now — not later, when the NP vote rises.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,113 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Yes. The National Party does have all of these features.

    a dictatorial leader / centralized autocracy (Barrett/Reynolds making diktats)

    forcible suppression of all political opposition parties (Barretts violent past from Youth Defence, Michael Quinn assault on Izzy Kamikaze, John Tate involvement in Dublin Riots)

    militarism / positive view of violence in political pursuits / expansion of the nation into empire (Amassing Gold)

    belief in a master race / racial superiority (Racist abuse of Hazel Chu)

    economic self-sufficiency / autarky (Amassing Gold)

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet





  • It absolutely does not.

    That's not even stretching definitions; it's flat out ridiculous.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,113 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It does.

    Here's one or two examples. I can easily find more.

    a dictatorial leader / centralized autocracy (Barrett/Reynolds making centralised diktats)

    forcible suppression of all political opposition parties (Barretts violent past from Youth Defence, Michael Quinn assault on Izzy Kamikaze, John Tate involvement in Dublin Riots)

    militarism / positive view of violence in political pursuits / expansion of the nation into empire (Amassing Gold)

    belief in a master race / racial superiority (Racist abuse of Hazel Chu)

    economic self-sufficiency / autarky (Amassing Gold)

    Their Party Vision fits into these features too

    An Páirtí Náisiúnta is an Irish nationalist party dedicated to the fulfilment of the Irish national idea. We believe in the Irish people, our right to exist as a nation and our right to defend and lay claim to our homeland. We seek an Ireland united, Irish and free.

    We stand against the criminal financial institutions which have enslaved future generations of Irish men and women to debt without end. We stand against the corrupt and amoral establishment who push replacement level immigration which will in time completely destroy Irish nationality. We stand against the project of a federated European Superstate which is explicitly anti-national and therefore anti-Irish. And most of all we stand against the decay of national spirit at the heart of our society.

    The men and women who died for Ireland fought always against that most insidious of enemies, the enemy within; the corruption of the national spirit by foreign ideas, interests and outlooks, all of which are in evidence today in that assembly of traitors called Dáil Éireann. What the men of 1916 saw as the coarse grubby materialism of the British Empire is at large in our own time in the form of international liberalism which infects the whole western world.

    Each nation must choose for themselves whether they will stand against the tide of national dissolution, which sweeps away peoples, homelands and traditions. Will Ireland live or die, endure or vanish? That question will be answered in this generation. As long as there is an Ireland to defend and love and unite, the fight must go on.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet





  • I could list more, but these two are the absolute worst:

    militarism / positive view of violence in political pursuits / expansion of the nation into empire (Amassing Gold)

    economic self-sufficiency / autarky (Amassing Gold)

    Comparing militarism and expansion of nation into empire and national economic autarky with the National Party's weird accrual of gold suggests to me that this is a desperate attempt to squeeze the National Party into the definition of fascism no matter how absurd the comparison.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,843 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It acted as a deflection for UKIP. Any time they'd be accused of racism, which was often and with very good reason, they'd argue that they weren't as bad as the BNP. UKIP ended up becoming the new BNP.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 9,648 Mod ✭✭✭✭mayordenis


    This is a really boring circular argument, the definition of fascism is multi-faceted and a sort of continuum. Are you really honestly arguing that the National Party do not at least aspire to be a fascist party? Down to their iconography they are so very clearly courting a likeness with the nazi party. Whatever else about trying to semantics-around a technical definition of fascism that can sort of be defended, it takes the complete denial of the evidence in front of you to argue they are not fascist.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,113 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    There's no desperate attempt at anything. The National Party fit into your defined features of fascism.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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