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2 out of 3 young adults living at home

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    The problems you mention for tenants must be balanced with owners rights to recover their properties when they/their families need it, or when they want to sell. You can’t have it all in favour of the tenant. At present, there are significant reasons not to rent, not least is the difficulty in ending tenancies and regaining vacant possession. If the process was made easier, you probably would have more owners who want to rent properties remaining in/entering the rental sector.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 917 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    First of all, though, you need to make the case that large numbers of accidental and amateur landlords are what is needed.

    As I suggested in another post, a landlord by buying up a property is preventing that same property being being bought by a family. He is also preventing the property being bought by a professional fund-based investor where these issues of the landlord wanting to move in a relative or himself do not arise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    If you want rental properties for tenants, then the case for buying to rent it out instead of owner occupancy is easily made. I don’t think I need to provide an explanation/case for that, it should be self explanatory.
    It would be naive to think in a country where 94% of the rental sector is provided by as you call them, amateur LLs, that the fund-based investor would come anywhere remotely close to replacing/providing that coverage. Besides, a small landlord is not going to be able to compete with/prevent a fund based investor from buying any property, they can most likely outbid amateurs on any property they set their sights on and in a lot of cases, before the property even reaches the market for sale.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 917 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    We need more rental properties, but these must provide a sufficiently high standard of service that they outweigh the benefit to the country of having those units available for sale to families.

    To illustrate, let us imagine that there were no tenant rights in law in Ireland. In this scenario, you would have many landlords and also many tenants. But these tenants would have no security and no chance of starting a family or living a normal life. At a moment's notice, their rent could be jacked up by an arbitrary amount, or they could be evicted. In this scenario, every landlord selling up and getting out would benefit society, since potentially that property could then be purchased by a family who could live a normal life with secure accommodation.

    The point of this is that there has to be some standards. Lowering them further to placate small landlords is not the way to go.

    In summary: more rentals, yes, but only if tenant rights are assured.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Another potential scenario, LLs lose almost all of their rights including the right to vacant possession the day a tenant moves in, then there are decreasing numbers of LLs for the tenants to rent from. As I said earlier, if you want rental properties, then you must have some balance.

    A point oft made, but rarely acknowledged by those with only one perspective, when a LL who had 4 tenants exits the rental sector, the number of people now looking for a new property is often greater than the number of people buying the house.

    You must also consider that not all LLs exiting the market are selling, they may be going to SLs/family occupancy/leaving the property empty.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 917 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Therefore a move towards fund-based investment, possibly with tax incentives for Irish people to invest in them is possibly the way to go.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,491 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    The state needs to get involved in the rental sector in a big way again. State builds homes, people rent them from the state.

    We need to get rid of the Tom, Dick and Harry non-professional Landlord who's only interested in making a quick buck off of desperate people while the LL's sit on their arses.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    I’m not sure what percentage of second hand properties or properties in need of refurbishment, institutional investors buy, but I would suspect it is mostly new builds.
    Is there some reason why you think fund based investors are not buying out all small LLs who are selling up? There is currently nothing to prevent them buying one off properties, yet 94% of LLs are as you call them amateurs. Should they decide to sell up and fund based investors do not wish to buy in Kells, Trim, Mullingar, Castlebar etc, or buy properties in need of renovation, what then for tenants?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    What could possibly go wrong? Do you see the State currently evicting LA tenants who don’t pay their rents?
    I suspect people with your viewpoint want the State to hand them a home, charge them low rent, knowing that the last thing the State will want is to evict people.

    At least be honest about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 917 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    If it is new builds as you suggest, that is a good thing IMO. They are funding brand new supply rather than cannibalising existing stock.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    You don’t see the issue with institutional funds buying up new developments for rental income on which they don’t pay tax in this State? Do you think they are more likely to offer lower rents?

    I also find that statement at odds with your desire for owner occupiers to be able to buy, surely the financial might of institutional investors would outbid owner occupiers, and they benefit from keeping more people looking to rent rather than being able to buy.

    I really don’t think the thread is now benefitting from this back and forth, so maybe it’s time others chimed in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 917 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    That is why I think Irish people should be encouraged to invest in these funds and be supported in doing so. Irish people would have to pay tax on returns from these funds but there could be tax breaks to encourage build-to-rent properties.

    On your second point, I don't think my statement is at odds with my statement that it is good for owner-occupiers to be able to buy. Both are a good thing. An institutional landlord funding a new rental development frees up properties elsewhere for families to buy.

    I am sorry if you don't like this back and forth. I am trying to make my point as simply as I can but I understand if you want to get out and let others have a go.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Why are they not paying tax?

    I think they are likely to offer the same market rents as anyone else, but at least with a professional service behind it. We will also always need rental stock.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Tax is paid by shareholders of REITs on their dividend, which may be outside the State, they are exempt from CT.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    REITs are obliged to pay out at least 85% of their revenue in dividends and there is a withholding tax applied to non-resident shareholders (which, admittedly, can be offset by various taxation agreements with other countries). The whole point is to encourage investment in property. There are clearly issues with the setup in that the tax take can be offset into other countries, though it is not a case of them "not paying tax".

    I'm not sure why you are obsessed with the idea that I think they will offer lower rents. I don't - I think both individual landlords and institutional landlords will charge whatever rents they can. I think institutional landlords will, in general, provide a far better service and that enforcement of the rules of what individual landlords have to provide is woeful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 301 ✭✭Oxo Moran


    That and relying on the private market as a fix.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I don't know how many times I have to say this, but whatever about the faults of the private market, they are desperate to build far more than they are being allowed to. It is the state intervention in the planning system that is the problem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 301 ✭✭Oxo Moran


    While you have a point, we know the construction industry won't police itself.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    We do, and regulation and control are important. However, what we have today are projects that conform to regulations and policy that are being rejected and neutered for no particularly good reason and utterly nonsense objections to "scale" and "transient populations".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,491 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    A lot less than has gone wrong with the current model.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    The house we recently bought has just the two of us living in it now. It was rented to 3 couples and when one half of one of them moved out the other decided not to pay the rent. Then the rest of the people in the house decide to join them in not paying the rent. Three and a half years the former owner was telling me it took to evict them.

    He came up to take away an old shed a week after we bought it that he didnt get around to before we closed and we had a good chat. He definitely didnt enjoy being a landlord.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,769 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    There is another salient point in your account, where once there were 6 tenants, there are now 2 occupants. So I’m always bemused by the argument some make that the loss of a rental is offset by an owner occupier purchasing it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 917 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Certainly from a tenant's point of view, other things being equal, the professional institutional landlord is preferable since some loopholes that amateur landlords can use to evict don't apply.

    The way I think the rental market needs to go (over time) is to have the bulk of rentals being either institutional funds, housing associations, or local authorities, with amateur landlords making up a small minority. I would see these groups trading units with tenants in situ and rental agreements preserved.



  • Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭purifol0


    Seriously? Is there a landlords union I can join or something? Prices went up and small time landlords increased in number because the govt have decided to (obediently) open the borders and also allow the building of build-to-rent properties by foreign investment companies.

    Its true homeowners are a voting block, and they only want prices to rise as now their gaff is worth multiples of what they paid for it, but mostly they are NIMBY's, not anti landlord-regulations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 917 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    You think increasing supply causes prices to go up?



  • Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭purifol0


    If the increase in supply is cartel controlled/monopolized this can happen. Hence the problem with foreign investment companies multi-decade long rent-only contracts with local councils.



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Murt2024


    Probably need to get a better job and upskill, fairly sad living in your parents house once you finish college or your trade. Its embarrassing really.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 917 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Where in Ireland does an institutional landlord have a monopoly? The vast majority of rental properties in the country are owned by small landlords.



  • Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭purifol0


    You asked a question and I answered it. Now you are moving the goalposts.

    Secondly I never said we had an oversupply, as immigration policy makes sure we can't. Merely that much our building industry is indeed banging out the properties, problem is many of them are built to rent and not for private sale.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 917 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    You didn't answer it, I'm afraid.

    I don't want to labour the point but you said that the increased supply by instututional landlords was part of the cause of increased prices. I asked how could increased supply cause increased prices and you said that there was a monopoly or cartel of them. I'm simply asking for evidence of this.

    Also, where did I imply you said there was an oversupply?

    Finally, what is wrong with increasing rental supply if there's a chronic rental shortage? True it may not be what buyers want but if it adds to the overall number of units in the country then that is surely a good thing?



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