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Dublin - BusConnects

17072747576

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭mikeybhoy


    I would say the main reason we are using double deckers in Ireland is not because they offer better passenger comfort but because they are easier/cheaper for operators to allocate.

    Most European countries have a mix of buses. Bendy buses for the high frequency core routes, regular 12m single deckers for the regular routes and smaller shorter wheelbase midibuses for the local community routes that serve residential areas where roads are tighter the kind of routes that would have imp buses in the past in Dublin.

    The VTs for example I believe were considered unsuitable for certain routes. In the last 20 years or so Dublin Bus in particular have moved to a more streamlined fleet. This I would imagine is because it's cheaper and easier to maintain a common fleet. Same reason Ryanair buy Boeing 737s DB prefer to only buy Volvo/Wright double deckers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    No they aren’t - they are well under an hour.

    And as another poster pointed out, there is a massive difference between standing on a tram and on a bus. They aren’t remotely comparable.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I'd call nonsense on that, modern BRT's in particular EV ones can be made just as stable as trams.

    BTW Brides Glen to O'Connell Street is 54 minutes, I wouldn't call that well under an hour! And it is over an hour to Broombrdige, though obviously not many make that journey.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I'd say it is more of a case of we traditionally just follow what the British do. Double Decker for the most part are only used in Britain and some former colonies. There are some exceptions to that, like a relatively small number in Berlin, etc. but really mostly British colonies.

    The whole right hand drive thing plays into that and tends to limit choice of vehicles. BRT's would need to be a special order from a company like VanHool, rather then an off the shelf product, thus extra expense.

    We also largely copied the British way of ticketing and service operations. The whole enter via the front door thing and pay the driver is very British. While I'm generalising mainland Europe tended to use the Luas model of multiple doors, enter/exit through any door, etc.

    I would point out that prior to Network Direct, the DB fleet was much more varied, with over 100 single deckers in the fleet, the VT class and even midi buses. Network Direct and the recession forced cost cutting measures and while shrinking the fleet (and thus driver numbers) they wisely focused the remaining fleet on the Double Deckers to try and maintain capacity while having less drivers.

    With the O route we will be heading back to this more varied fleet with more single deckers (yes I know there are 2 or 3 already).

    The BE fleet is VERY varied, with for example both single and double deckers operating in Cork.

    BTW Ryanairs fleet is more varied these days, while the Max are strictly speaking 737's they are lots of differences with the NG including being bigger and more seats. But also the Ryanair group now includes other airlines that have Airbus aircraft.

    Again though, I'm not suggesting that we just randomly replace double deckers with BRT, like when DB tried bendi-buses with zero infrastructure change. I'm talking like the Swiftway plan, that was a major plan to completely rebuild three corridors to BRT. Use Luas style off bus ticketing, etc.

    Such a service might not even be operated by DB, it could be GAI or could even have come under Luas and it's operator, so fleet commonality wouldn't really come into it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Germany operates buses as pay at the front too, but it's very rare now to see someone paying this way. Most passengers use prepaid tickets that they validate on board.

    Along with double deckers, we also inherited the British prejudice about the honesty of the average person: all German bus services run on an honour system (like the Luas), but we insist on having payment on entry, which slows down the service.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Just to add that no one is likely to be standing on the tram from the extremes of either route, but rather from points half way along, but the buses do fill up far quicker.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    You are just as likely to get a seat on a bus double decker or BRT at the extreme ends of the route too.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    It’s not prejudice, it’s informed by long experience. Anything more than a few percent evasion rate and it spreads by contagion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    But the same dishonest bus users reform when they take the Luas?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 569 ✭✭✭annfield1978


    https://www.etenders.gov.ie/epps/cft/prepareViewCfTWS.do?resourceId=2965723

    https://ted.europa.eu/en/notice/-/detail/46039-2024

    The National Transport Authority (NTA) intends to appoint a Client Partner with the appropriate capability and capacity to assist the NTA with the management and delivery of the Core Bus Corridors Infrastructure Works (CBCIW) in Dublin. CBCIW will provide approximately 230km of bus priority and approximately 200km of cycle routes. The CBCIW will be split into 12 schemes across the Greater Dublin Area and delivered in a phased approach. CBCIW will be led by the NTA, with the Client Partner providing support and day-to-day direction, leadership and management through scheme planning, development and on-site delivery. The Client Partner will also coordinate, oversee, direct and work collaboratively with delivery partners, including Design and Build Contractors once appointed, to ensure CBCIW is delivered effectively, efficiently and that its benefits are realised. The Client Partner services can be categorised into 7 broad areas: (1) Project Management Office (2) Commercial and Cost Management (3) Design and Technical Services (4) Framework Management, Local Authority Liaison and Technical Services (ITS) (5) Land, Property and Planning (6) Scheme Delivery and Integration (7) Strategic Communications and Stakeholder Relations. Further detail in relation to each area is contained within the procurement documents. The NTA will not be responsible for any costs, charges or expenses incurred by Candidates or Tenderers relating to this competition, irrespective of the outcome, or if the competition is cancelled or postponed. All costs incurred by interested parties in participating in this competition must be borne by them. The NTA may terminate this competition (or part of it), change the competition's basis or procedures, procure the contract by other means, negotiate with one or more parties at any time, or to do any combination of the foregoing or anything else deemed appropriate. In no instance will the NTA be required to give any reason for any alteration or termination of the process. The most economically advantageous or any tender will not automatically be accepted. The summaries given within this document, or in other information given to Candidates, must not be taken as comprehensive, or as a substitute for reading the procurement documents themselves. Given the long-term duration of the contract, as well as the nature of the services to be provided (which depend on the delivery programme for the underlying Schemes), it is not possible to provide a definitive estimate of the value of the contract. The estimated value stated within this notice represents the NTA’s best estimate at this stage, but the actual value of the contract may be higher or lower depending on the actual volume of services required. The duration of the contract will align with the delivery programme for CBCIW and extend two (2) years beyond completion of the final scheme. The duration of the contract is currently estimated to be approximately ten (10) years; however, this may be amended at the sole discretion of the NTA to align with any revised delivery programme for CBCIW. Refer to the procurement documents for further information



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Receipt of tenders date was the end of February. They must have selected one by now



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bsharp


    That was for the pre-qualification. Its now at the tender submission stage for shortlisted teams. It closes early July. Imagine it'll be autumn before any sign of an award.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    The hearing for the application for judicial review over the Clongriffen core corridor was meant to be today. Wonder if it went ahead, and if so, what the outcome was.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Perhaps one of the O route drivers forgot what he was driving?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,666 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Why on earth were they there?

    Honestly, hate to be a moan, but I've definitely noticed a decrease in driving standards among bus drivers in the last year or so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The driver took the wrong turn. Simple as that.

    Unforgivable however, as all of the roads under the railway east of Pearse are clearly out of bounds with clear signage and drivers are all warned about them.

    The bus would have been going from Broadstone to start up in service on one of the routes that terminate off Baggot Street.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The Blackrock Clinic have launched High Court proceedings against the Blackrock CBC planning approval.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2024/06/10/blackrock-clinic-takes-court-challenge-over-busconnects-corridor-and-compulsory-land-purchase/



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,666 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Off topic but why would a bus for a Baggot Street route come from Broadstone and not Donnybrook or Ringsend?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Well I think that you need to look at the entire route before asking a question like that.

    The 37, 38/a/b/d, 39/a and 70 are all Navan Road / Blanchardstown routes rather than just Baggot Street.

    Buses have to travel to/from the both ends of the route and their garage.

    Historically they have been Broadstone / Phibsboro operated.

    Also neither of the other garages would have room for them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭crushproof


    A precious 17 car spaces? Good grief give me a break!

    A serious overhaul of our infrastructure planning is needed, constantly having to deal with this utter nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    they will be compensated for loss of property though, how vis it grounds for a court case?



  • Registered Users Posts: 630 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    It's absolute nonsense. I hope it's thrown out and a big legal bill charged to them.

    There is plenty of parking already on site. The enhanced bus route will allow more people, who are able to, to get there using public transport.

    Also, there is plenty of space there to reorganize the parking spaces and reduce the loss to 10 or less. The privilege attached to this is almost beyond belief.

    Post edited by loco_scolo on


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,666 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    I'd love to see the NTA/DLRCC get petty and announce that they'll fully ban right hand turns from Rock Road into Blackrock Clinic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    Obviously their logic is that if you have to use public transport you're probably not rich enough to attend the Blackrock Clinic! 🤣



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    I live in Tallaght area. Can I confirm that planning permission has been granted for Tallaght-Christchurch corridor?

    I see lots of spraypaint marking on Greenhills Road recently especially near the Walkinstown Roundabout.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    No it hasn’t.

    So far only the following have been approved and the first two have legal objections:

    • Malahide Road CBC
    • Blackrock / Belfield CBC
    • Ballyfermot CBC
    • Ballymun / Finglas CBC

    No construction work is due until 2025.

    Post edited by LXFlyer on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    I've noticed that as well, there's an abundance of spraypaint markings along Walkinstown Road from the Roundabout to the LMR/Drimnagh Road junction



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,337 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Not to forget the quite large multi story car park on site which (if you are to scroll through all old Google Satellite images) has never actually had its top floor filled…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,564 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Taking a wrong turn is one thing but ignoring all the warning signs is more worrying.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Again not excusing it at all, but it's not the first time that it has happened. It had happened more or less once a decade.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The planning approvals for the BC corridors appear to have come to a complete standstill yet again, last one was Blackrock in April and only 4 out of 12 schemes approved with 2 of them going to the courts. 2 years has been taken by ABP, absolutely glacial. The vast majority of the rest of them are completely non contentious.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭p_haugh




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Well spotted - always helps to have eagle eyed posters! ;-)

    Good to see this progressing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    I will admit someone on a different site spotted it, not me. I just reposted the link here 😅



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Take the kudos LOL.

    Good to have some positive news regardless!



  • Registered Users Posts: 630 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    329 pages of writing. No diagrams, just 329 pages of text. Is that really necessary? Is it any wonder it takes 2 years for these things to pass through ABP if that's what they need, or choose, to produce......



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    That’s the ABP decision report.

    The diagrams are all in the extensive EIS that the NTA submitted and which you can view on the scheme website.

    ABP don’t design the project, the NTA does.



  • Registered Users Posts: 630 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    I know! My point is why do ABP have to produce 329 pages of hard text to approve a project. Feels like massive overkill.…



  • Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭GusherING


    They need a reasoned opinion so that it is legally sound and defensible if challenged by way of judicial review.

    Having said all that they could likely adopt much of the same report for each bus correctly and then tailor it for the key issues of concern that were flagged during observation stage for that particular corridor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Because there are any number of people out there who could try and take the decision to judicial review and it needs to stand up in court.

    I would have thought that much was pretty obvious surely?



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    It’s a pity we’re such a litigious society that this is necessary in order to swat away all the cranks, but here we are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 630 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Jesus, is the second line of your comment really necessary?

    Obviously it's not surprising to you that ABP need to issue a 329 page approval document for a 12km bus corridor, but it was surprising to me.

    Thanks others for constructive responses. It's no wonder it takes so long for ABP to approve anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Well we’ve already got two legal objections, one of over the location of a bus stop. That should tell you an awful lot.

    Sadly we live in a litigious society, and there is every prospect of further attempts at judicial review on other CBCs, particularly the corridors with significant traffic changes or CPO.

    You’ve only to look at the number of actions (often questionable) brought against ABP decisions that are regularly reported to see why they have to go into such minute detail.



  • Registered Users Posts: 630 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Thanks. It really shows why ABP is so slow to get approvals out. Obviously there are resource issues there, but given the NIMBY culture in Ireland, this is the result.

    How can a planning authority (in any country) be expected to function, when that's what it's up against.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Quick shout out to the camera enforcement system that we were supposed to have in place by now but has not even been scoped, never mind tendered for, and of course is the foundation of BusConnects, without which the project objectives are unachievable. We can add it to the pile of not-delivered promises on BusConnects.

    Staff shortages aside, a series of project management blunders have dogged the project. Simple infrastructure tweeks such as the signalling at Heuston, the suburban bus hubs and the layout at Ballymun Rd/Griffith Avenue and many others should be done by now but their absence will now hamper the roll out of routes as we've seen on the S2.

    The common sense approach of rolling out the orbitals first to maximise benefits early was not taken, with no rationale offered. Instead the NTA focused on the routes that were simply a renaming exercise, and in doing worsened the staffing shortage.

    Opportunity to implement bus gates early and deliver real improvements to the most unreliable routes quickly was missed (particularly relevant to Mount Brown Bus Gate), without which the G spine roll out (and removal of the reliable 79) was a disaster and has resulted in worse service to the areas involved. The same disaster is destined to be replicated on the A and B spines without bus gates at Rathmines and Stoneybatter. There will be no 'lessons learnt' file prepared after each blunder.

    Failure to deal with the Blackrock clinic and Artane bus stop issues early on has lead to court cases

    Failure to adhere to actual design practice on the south side corridors in favour of more car lanes and unusably small footpaths and substandard cycling widths will lead to further court cases (with actual legal grounds and thus will put these corridors back to drawing board).

    Failure to engage with DCC on the College Green situation will mean last minute re-routes and miscommunication to the public.

    In fact the whole project at this point will likely be unfit for purpose upon completion. The main corridors, even those destined to be sent back to design stage, already have a demand profile more suited to light rail anyway, and the only way to deal with that in the medium to long term is ridiculously large tri axle double deckers.

    It's clear at this point that there isn't sufficient competence at the senior level of the NTA to manage major projects like this. I would have preferred outsourcing or hiring in talent at a premium (as has been done with metrolink). That being said the department of transport and the government are also major obsticles to progress. It feels like the system is set up in such a way that allows public bodies to pass blame between eachother rather than actually just deliver on promises.

    Post edited by cgcsb on


  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,591 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    Are there any maps or updates to the road changes for the quays once the bus gates kick in? It's quite frustrating trying to work it out in my own head which way private cars go, as who knows what changes they'll make to city centre layouts anyway



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The Blanchardstown CBC has now been approved by ABP.

    https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/313892

    That’s 6/12 approved now.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    And just two going into Judicial Review so far, right?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    With 6/12 approved they must be planning on appointing a contractor to commence construction of these soon, right?



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