Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

The highest level in sa is urc which weve been better than them in if we where thet stuck for depth then players wouldnt fairly consistently come in to cover injured players and thrive

Why does "Making the 10 shirt his own" matter?

No, I think given Crowley's talent (and fwiw, I'm an absolutely enormous fan of him, and have been since his Irish U20s days, I think he's a complete baller), he would have emerged as the Munster and Ireland starter. I just don't think he necessarily would have in time to be picked against Australia in Nov 2022 had he not toured with EI and played well at 10 in those games, because prior to that he had a tiny sample size of games at 10.

If he doesn't play against Australia, it's unlikely Ireland pick him for the 6N as a 10, given he was largely playing 12 and 15 for Munster in that window (posted the data on this in a previous post), and from there, he mightn't have made the breakthrough to the RWC squad.

I dunno what point you're trying to make on the Leinster pecking order. I think the Leinster pecking order at 10 is, when everyone is fit: Ross, Harry, Sam Prendergast, Charlie Tector. There isn't much evidence that the Leinster coaches see Ciaran Frawley as a 10, as they neglected to really back him there even this season with Ross Byrne injured.

When Jordan Larmour was picked at 15 against Scotland, it, fairly crucially, came with the caveat that the two first choice fifteens (Hugo Keenan and Jimmy O'Brien) were injured, Mack Hansen was injured, Ciaran Frawley was injured, Mike Haley was just back from injury. Mike Lowry's form was awful, and they weren't going to pick Tiernan O'Halloran. The injury happened a few short hours before the game (during the warm up), so the replacement had to be someone within the squad. That meant it was going to be either Jacob Stockdale or Jordan Larmour, and they went for Larmour as the guy showing better form at that point.

No one is claiming they need to take the players to "know if they're talented" and it's completely disingenuous to suggest so. They bring them in to see what sort of characters they are, how they train, how they work, how they communicate, how adaptable they are. All of this stuff they need to see the players first hand to get a view on.

It was widely reported at the time that the provinces had the ability to pull some players from the EI tour who they needed, and one of the primary examples cited for this was Ben Healy - who Ireland wanted on the EI tour, and who Munster felt was their starter at the time.

I think it's fair to say at the start of that season that Healy was probably still ahead of Crowley, otherwise I think Healy would have toured SA.

Where did I say he wasn't going to get Ireland caps?

Why are you constantly looking for things to get outraged by?

Crowley was obviously a really talented player, but we only were really able to see that when he started to play. He wasn't going to make the RWC squad in the centres (where we were very settled with 4 top class options).

If he hadn't gone on the EI tour, then by the time the 6Ns rolls around, he'd have likely only had a tiny handful of games at 10. There is no way based on that Ireland would have picked him.

But, crucially, the point of all this discussion is that we did have the EI tour, and on the back of that, he was capped for Ireland shortly afterwards and then picked for the subsequent 6N and RWC. Once again, Jack Crowley is probably the best example of why the EI tour worked really well, despite your repeated attempts to claim otherwise.

Why? He had played a lot of 10 just off the bench. like our backup 10 for several 6 nations games this year is 26 and only has 12 starting games at 10. Plus in this scenario he ends up provincial starter so adds up more

Im not outraged im trying to understand your logic. Which dosent really make sense. Double digit caps are not enough but 4 vs poor opposition made him? What are we talking about here. He as a 21 year old started away to castres who won the top14 that year and won but a game vs the windhoek draft griques made him as a player?

He was either good enough to start or he wasnt the goalposts that get moved for players is frustrating

If you dont agree with frawley then thats fair enough but just go with it instead of suggesting a 22 year old maby being a starter is worse than a 26 year old absolutely not being.

Youd mentioned he likely wouldn't have played the 6n or wc warmups/wc hed have gad a lot more mins by then

And it dosent matter anyway

No, it wasn't. That would have made zero sense - they were actually thinking Ciaran Frawley was their first choice 10 going into the tour, and he got injured on the eve of it, so they were initially picking two players to back him up. Jake Flannery at the time was always likely to tour as he was expendable for Ulster (they had Burns and Madigan).

But even if we take your point - that Ireland wanted to bring both Healy & Crowley - the likelihood is Munster lobbied for a guy to stay. If Munster lobbied to keep Healy for that period, and Healy had played double the minutes of Crowley the previous season and started ahead of Crowley in the one game of that season so far, then of course it's fair to assume Healy was ahead of Crowley in the pecking order at that time. We'll never know this definitively but that's the best info available to us.

My position is hes an incredibly talented player thats been highly touted for 5 or 6 years that played senior rugby and big games early and likely would have bee starter or backup 10 for most of a season under prendergast as well as filling in other spots (and we know this coaching staff values versatility)

if a coaching staff cant see the ability without taking them away for two months with an assistant coach not even andy farrell the its a bad sign and suggests were missing out on some world class talent elsewhere because they havent gone on a tour with irish coaches

What are you on about by repeatedly claiming two months? FFS - it was a three day camp and a 10 day tour. It was barely 2 weeks, never mind 2 months.

He had looked good in a truncated U20s campaign and had played a handful of times for Munster, where he was clearly third choice coming into the season. The idea that they'd just elevate him based on the perception of his talent (which was entirely unproven at that juncture) is utterly nonsensical.

The EI tour is one of the best things that ever happened to Jack Crowley. Given his unquestionable talent he'd have made the breakthrough eventually, but I really doubt he'd have made the Ireland squad for the 2023 6N and the 2023 RWC squad without the EI tour.

Breakthrough In this case meaning he had to be starting most games in a specific position to be considered right?

Does more players dictate more depth of talent? Odd that kleyn got in there but not here then isint it? Rassie must be a bad evaluator of talent

Why would you stop trying to get new talent in in a world cup year?

I dont think it made or should have made a difference in selection and it absolutely didnt change rowntree and prendergasts opinions

You have absolutely no way of knowing the latter, and whether you think it should or shouldn't have made a difference in Ireland selection, the evidence is that is absolutely 100% did in the eyes of the only people who's opinion matters on this - the Irish coaching team.

I would agree hed have done it sooner

And that suggests an issue with the irish coaching teamtalent evaluation

Yeah, well I think they'll be able to sleep soundly enough at night despite your concerns.