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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It is very notable that Ireland new record breaking synchronous condenser is a hybrid system, that includes both the condenser and 160MWh of batteries (BESS). Having batteries as part of your project is increasingly becoming a no brainer, a condenser, solar, wind project are all increasingly been combined with batteries.

    The incredible rate at which battery prices are failing means they are quickly eating into those stages you mention above, which is fantastic news as when it comes to fossil fuels, the faster reactors are also the most polluting.

    And then there are the developments in Long Duration Energy Storage (LDES) like Iron Air that Kris mentions earlier.

    It is looking increasingly like we could well have an entire days worth of BESS and LDES on the grid by 2050 and it wouldn't surprise me if it happened even sooner.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,053 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Oh look, at least one digit looks to soon be extracted:

    I'm dying to see the cost, as we will be paying for for every penny, plus profit margin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,053 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Last I heard the French were refusing to commit to more renewables and the EU morons were out for their blood for spoiling their renewables party, so where do you get this renewables investment outstripping nuclear?

    The EU’s energy commissioner, Kadri Simson, has urged France
    to raise its renewable energy target to “at least 44%” by 2030, warning
    it would consider taking “steps” at EU level in case of persistent
    shortcomings.

    Paris has until now refused to put forward a renewables target for 2030, pushing instead for a
    wider “decarbonised” energy goal, which combines nuclear power and
    renewables.

    The reason I am caling the EU morons is because in 2023, France's zero carbon electrical energy production exceeded it's electrical energy consumption - 443.38 TWh of zero CO2 energy produced vs 425.7 TWh consumed.

    That's like a teacher giving you detention and making an example of you to the class for handing in an assignement a week early and getting 100%.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Fantastic news, hopefully lots more to come soon.

    Interesting to note, that this project didn't win a RESS contract, so they are actually going it alone without government support.

    Just goes to show how well these renewables are doing, they are getting so competitive they don't even need government support.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Well you heard wrong, France is going full tilt into renewables.

    3.3GW of solar added last year alone, with a goal of 48GW of solar by 2030 and 140GW by 2050. For offshore wind the goal has been recently increased to 45GW by 2050, 35GW onshore by 2030.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,053 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    That was in 2023. In 2024 they changed their minds.

    In November, the government put forward initial figures proposing a
    doubling to 18 GW of offshore wind power in 2035 as well as setting out
    the annual rate of deployment of solar panels needed to hit 75 GW in
    2035, while also aiming for a doubling of onshore wind power capacity to
    40 GW in 2035.

    Jules Nyssen, president of France’s Renewable Energies Union,
    declared himself “stunned” after discovering that renewables targets did
    not appear in the draft.

    The text promises to make efforts rather than set objectives and uses formulations such as “tending towards a reduction”.

    For Anne Bringault, energy transition manager of the Climate Action
    Network, “this is an extremely significant step backwards, and totally
    inconsistent with European objectives.

    “Even if the objectives are raised, we no longer have such a strong commitment to them,” she said.

    The draft law also drops targets for reducing energy consumption via renovation of buildings.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,053 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I found it and edited my post. That link and the commitmments it contained, was made obsolete in 2024, as were the targets.

    Despite a set of fresh new decarbonisation goals published last year,
    starting with the progressive phaseout of fossil fuels, France seems
    more focused on deploying new nuclear reactors – which will likely cost
    more than expected – than making up for the gap between the development
    of its clean energy sources and those of other countries in the European
    Union.

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/clew-guide-france-moves-action-new-climate-plan-green-industry-makeover



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    This is as of two weeks ago and literally from the economy minister:

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/offshore-wind-france-aims-for-45-gw-by-2050-with-50-european-production/

    The French do have firm plans to build 6 reactors. They might increase that to 14 reactors. But that would just replace ageing reactors, not new capacity.

    Lets be honest here, France hasn't put a new reactor into operation in 23 years! They might finally get Flam going this year, fingers crossed. All new capacity in the last 20 years has been new renewables. 3.3GW of solar last year alone, 2.5 GW of new solar in 2022, etc.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    So having doing a bit of digging, here is the story. The French have a new proposed Energy Bill, but it is still in draft form. Originally it had hard targets for renewables, which the targets have been taken out for now.

    But that doesn't mean they wouldn't still build renewables (see the economy ministers comments two weeks ago), just that they aren't setting out targets.

    The thing is the targets they do give for Nuclear would only be at best enough to replace existing aging plants and not enough to keep up with growth.

    This all feels like political manoeuvring with the Germans and EU, rather then something to be taken seriously.

    They like to talk a lot about Nuclear, but in the real world they have been building nothing but renewables for the past 20 years!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,051 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The proposed investment in nuclear is for 6 plants at around €70 billion (a ludicrously unrealistic figure) which represent around €6 billion a year over the deployment period. Meanwhile they are spending well over €30 billion a year on renewables.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,794 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Oriel offshore windfarm will apply for planning this week. The first major offshore project to reach this point - as it happens, not 1 of the 4 approved under ORESS.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/0520/1450186-oriel-windfarm-planning-permission/

    It was mentioned during the recent DMAP launch that 6 projects were expected to apply for planning in next few weeks - 4x ORESS (North Irish Sea Array, Dublin Array, Codling Wind Park, Sceirde Rocks) and 2x non-ORESS (Oriel and Arklow Bank Wind Park II).

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/05/03/new-south-coast-wind-farms-to-be-concentrated-initially-off-waterford-and-wexford/

    https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/72a5c-south-coast-designated-maritime-area-plan-for-offshore-renewable-energy/#update-20-may-2024-draft-sc-dmap-data

    Positive and negative news on infrastructure investment. Bord Gáis/Centrica apparently looking to invest in offshore wind

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/bord-gais-energy-to-develop-offshore-wind-farms-with-macquaries-corio/a1181934139.html

    While Doyle Shipping have withdrawn from a project to service offshore wind developments in Cork

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/companies/arid-41390926.html



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    SSE pulling out of hydrogen a fuel for ferries scheme,

    https://afloat.ie/marine-environment/power-from-the-sea/item/63231-sse-renewables-confirms-withdrawal-from-galway-hydrogen-valley-project

    "emerging complexities with the grid connection for the
    project and the associated design, has meant our plans to produce
    hydrogen at the port were no longer viable"

    But they are still looking at other hydrogen projects



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,941 ✭✭✭✭josip


    All those applications arriving in ABP at the same time doesn't sound like an ideal scenario. Just in time for the summer holliers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,724 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    And no sign of the MPA legislation that was promised this Dail term to protect more sensitive Marine areas ahead of this developer led planning policy, shure what could go wrong??

    https://afloat.ie/marine-environment/marine-planning/item/62682-irish-government-criticised-by-fair-seas-for-missing-deadline-on-marine-protected-areas-bill#google_vignette



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-renewable-grid-recovering-electricity-storage.html

    new device has a power conversion efficiency of 44% at 1,435°C, within the target range for existing high-temperature energy storage (1,200°C-1,600°C) And 50% looks doable in the future.

    Thermophotovoltaics , it's solar panels that use the infra red light given off by very hot things.

    Rocks, insulation and electricity and you've potentially got grid scale storage that's more round-trip efficient than hydrogen storage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,157 ✭✭✭gjim


    Pretty cool. Capt'n - you're a long time hydrogen proponent, doesn't news like this make you question hydrogen as an energy storage tech?

    A small team of postgrads and a professor can come up with something that comfortably beats the round trip efficiency of hydrogen storage, despite the latter having a 50 year head start and billions spent on it.

    It has none of the complexity of hydrogen storage and conversion - thermal mass is cheap and scalable and heat insulation is a simple, safe, passive, low-maintenance technology. Leakage may be an issue but it's certainly also an issue for hydrogen which is the leakiest gas there is and which has a GWP10 which is 15 times higher than CO2.

    Hydrogen is like nuclear - initially beguiling - but the more you learn and know about it, the more it looks like a bust for fundamental physical and tech reasons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,053 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Super-capacitors, hot rocks, sodium ion batteries, flow batteries, molten salt batteries. Put your own money into these, go-on, invest in them and become rich.

    It's an argument paralysing load of nonsense because it's all based on hope and wishes and massive amounts of investments at multi decade time scales to bring to any usable fruition, for the occasional tech that manages to work out.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    This looks to become another grid scale technology. It's solar panels that can run off the glow of stored heat. So likely to have similar learning curve and falling costs.

    The square cube law means that you need comparatively little insulation per tonne at grid scales.

    Fuel to energy is a backstop.

    There is no need to consider more expensive technologies for dispatchable power like neutron beams from lasers or long duration grid scale storage from stuff more suited to shorter term like lithium batteries or pumped storage. Not sure how well compressed air energy storage scales up to weeks.

    The attraction of energy to fuel storage is that it provides months of dispatchable grid scale storage using mostly existing infrastructure and off the shelf technology, and at a cost per KWh that matches a non dispatchable source that you have to keep paying for continuously whether you need it or not.

    I'd argue that while tricky on a small scale hydrogen isn't that tricky on a grid scale. The UK and Germany already distribute amounts of it comparable to our needs and we've nearly two centuries of town gas experience in hydrogen rich flows. And it doesn't have to be hydrogen. Hydrogen rich ammonia is easily compressed into a storable liquid. And there's other hydrogen carriers in addition to bio-methane, ethanol can converted to the gas ethene.

    But moot if you can get a higher round trip efficiency from heat. (In theory you could get a higher Carnot efficiency using the heat with turbines, but there's massive compressor / pumping losses so you wouldn't)



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,064 ✭✭✭✭zell12




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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Sodium Ion batteries have already entered mass production at CATL and BYD, the two largest battery manufactures (50% market share combined!).

    You can actually buy Sodium Ion battery cells on AliExpress! And yes, folks have already bought them and tested them out on Youtube and confirmed they are the real deal.

    We are starting to see waves of battery tech that was previously in the lab finally starting to hit real world mass production and seriously drive down prices. LFP has revolutionised grid scale storage over the last 2 years or so, now Sodium Ion is starting to hit the market and will drive prices even lower over the next few years.

    As prices are driven down the number of hours such systems can run economically increases.

    Longer duration seasonal storage type systems haven't reached mass scale production yet, because the demand simply isn't there for them yet. We don't actually need them to reach the 2030 80% goal, up until 2050, we can just use gas as the backup. But as we get past 2030 and start heading to 2050, expect to see some of these technologies begin to enter mass production as we get closer to 2050.

    Look at Synchronous Condensers, they aren't a new idea, they were invented in the 1910's, but now are hitting a renaissance again and entering mass production as the need is there now.

    But hey, if you want to invest in SMR start-ups or other Nuclear companies, be my guest (seriously not financial advice!).



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,794 ✭✭✭Apogee


    800MW Arklow Bank 2, the second of the two non-ORESS OWF projects, is expected to apply for planning to ABP this week.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/0604/1452449-sse-to-lodge-plans-this-week-for-arklow-bank-2-windfarm/

    293MW gas power plant in Kilshane, Dublin approved by ABP

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/plan-for-150m-gas-fired-power-station-in-dublin-approved/a1443046281.html

    Work on Greenlink interconnector has resumed with "final cable burial activities, subsea rock installation operation activities taking place between May 26 and July 15"

    https://www.offshore-energy.biz/offshore-cable-ops-resume-at-ireland-wales-interconnector-after-a-break/

    Finally, two interesting posts from Irish Energy Bot. On May 14th, both interconnectors tripped:

    And a snapshot from last month shows the small but growing contribution of solar:



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,463 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I'm still firmly of the view that commercial solar PV in ireland is green washing ,

    Yes it provides power for 5 or 6 months of the year, but none at peak national demand ( December evenings ) , so there HAS to be a second system to cover that -

    I'm not how-ever anti solar , businesses and private homes that produce solar electricity for their own use don't have transmission losses, and are incentivised to change their consumption patterns to use the electricity they produce ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The second system is gas power plants until 2050. They would fall under the 20% of fossils fuels we are allowed until then.

    The solar is there so that for the 6 months of the year, you don't have to use those gas power plants on say a windless, but summer day.

    If we didn't have the solar, then it is possible that our use of gas throughout the whole year could be over the 20% limit.

    Also during the summer months, using cheap solar is much cheaper then using expensive gas.

    That is the the thing about solar, it has gotten so cheap to purchase and install and operating costs are almost nothing, that it doesn't make sense not to use it when available. In other words, it cuts down on the amount of fossil fuels we use throughout a year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,941 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Also during the summer months, using cheap solar is much cheaper then using expensive gas.

    Agree if your statement is about the future and obviously better for the climate/CO2 issues, but if it's about the present, who is it cheaper for?

    If there's any gas in the half hour energy mix, then doesn't it cost the same as gas?

    Has there been a half hour yet where gas has not been in the mix? I thought we were limited to <90% renewables in the mix at the moment.

    Is there a saving to the state by not having to buy carbon credits?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,438 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    Just a few questions about future of solar in Ireland:

    We've currently 1GW of solar connected to the grid, Eamon Ryan said this is likely to double to 2GW by next year? Is this definitely true? Is this based on auctions and planning permission of solar farms or are they already under construction?

    Does this take into account the efficiency % of 20% for solar pv eg is 1GW really 200MW or not?

    Also he said 700 houses solar connections a week are happening. Does this include new homes that come with solar? I'm assuming it doesn't.

    Also last year he said 500 homes a week were getting solar. So 40% increase this year. How do people foresee this growth? Could it reach a ceiling of 2000 a week in a couple of years? I assume there's a natural limit on installations a week but we can also assume it'll keep growing.

    It could feasibly be 1000 a week in a year.

    Also our aim is 8GW of solar by 2030. Our total grid demand is 5.5GW but is increasing every year.

    Our current wind energy capacity is 5GW I think. But this has a limit of 75% of grid demand.

    What happens in the future on a sunny, windy day when we produce more solar and wind energy than demand?

    Will it mean 100% of demand comes from renewables or will there be a similar limit of 75%?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    I think the big issue with solar is using high quality ag land in east and south for solar farms.

    As climate change causes greater food insecurity and reduces arable land worldwide, it's a bit backwards to be covering otherwise productive land in panels when we have huge swathes of houses, factories and unproductive farmland uncovered



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Ireland is one of the most food secure countries in the world! We export 5 times the amount of food as we consume.

    Sure there is a wider conversation on the morals of should we be feeding folks in other countries. But then you have to go into a conversation why do we focus of meat and dairy, which are relatively inefficient use of agriculture land. If we banned meat and dairy farming and switch to veg, etc. we could greatly increase how much food we could export.

    The truth of the matter is we already make choices to maximise the benefit to our own country and people over the rest of the world, right or wrong.

    The percentage of land we need to use for solar is tiny and even then that land can still be used for farming sheep under the panels.

    Having said all that, we of course should be covering every building with solar panels.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,051 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Just a heads up, Ireland farms beef and dairy because much of our land is unsuitable for tillage. It would be challenging to increase our self sufficiency without forcing higher rates of meat and dairy consumption and reducing export of these products.

    Thats not to advocate for any farming strategy but just pointing out that a move to more tillage isn't going to happen.



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