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Transfer apartment to sister

  • 20-05-2024 5:38pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2 jennywondering


    Hi. I have an apartment with is mortgage free. A similar apartment was sold recently for 280K. I wish to transfer the property to my sister as her permanent home. She has been living there, rent free, for the last 10 months since my last tenants left.

    I bought the apartment for E130k in 1996. I am wondering what would be the cost (e.g.legal fees, stamp duty etc). Is it one year's tax reduction between siblings of around E3K. Are there any other clawbacks??

    My sister is single, in her 60s and has never owned a property).

    (I understand that I need to speak to a solicitor and possibly an accountant but I would welcome some advice and information here.

    Thanks

    Jenny



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,125 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Who has been paying the management fees and landlord insurance since the last tenants moved out?

    Can your sister afford them, plus the heating etc bills? (I'm not kidding, there can be some older people who cannot afford to run a house, even if bits gifted to them.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,169 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    my understanding is that this will essentially be a “gift” - so between siblings you can gift up to 33k or so tax free - after that it’s taxable at 33% - so the balance of the current value would be taxed at 33% giving your sister a tax bill of 70k or so - that would be my take on it but yes legal advice for all sorts of reasons essential here

    You could explore putting your sister onto the deeds to see if that would reduce her tax bill at all - ie joint ownership? Would your sister have any funds to put towards either purchase price or for the tax bill?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Your sister living there rent free is technically a taxable gift. You can gift her €3,000 a year free of tax (Small Gift Exemption). If Revenue somehow got wind of it she would owe 33% Capital Acquisitions Tax (CAT) on any "market rent" above the annual €3,000.

    Provided she has never received any gifts or inheritances from other siblings, grandparents or aunts/uncles she has a €32,500 lifetime threshold for CAT. You can add the small gift exemption to this. So €35,500 would be free of tax, any balance above that will be taxed at 33%.

    Stamp Duty would also be payable on the value of the transfer.

    You need to speak to a tax advisor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,688 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    wrong thread…..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,978 ✭✭✭standardg60


    How is letting someone live in your own house rent free a taxable gift? Everyone still living at home would be liable so.

    OP she would be liable for gift tax so just leave the arrangement as is, why would she need to own it if she's no one to leave it to?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've read it that it isn't the OPs PPR. She mentioned "previous tenants". Sounds like a rental property to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,978 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Why would it matter? There is still no obligation to charge someone rent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Yes, the OP could surely just let her sister live on there. By all means set a nominal rent that covers the cost of management fees and insurance etc. It's none of Revenue's business afaik, what rents people choose to set.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,162 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    There is a massive difference between the family home and a rental property.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    https://www.revenue.ie/en/gains-gifts-and-inheritance/valuation-date-value-certain-benefits/free-use-property-interest-free-loans.aspx

    If you have free use of a property, or for less than its market value, this is a benefit and you may have to pay tax on it

    This assumes that the OP is not living with the sister in the apartment. Gifting someone a room is different to gifting someone use of an entire property, so the "everyone living at home" analogy doesn't apply

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,730 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Because it is.

    Maintenance of your own children isn't covered; to a point - but buying them a house and letting them live in it rent-free would be.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If every house on the street is being rented for €2,000 a month, and the OP charges her sister €100 a month in rent, you can be damn certain Revenue will benchmark the rent and tax it accordingly...if they find out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,441 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    How does that work with the current rent pressure zones rules ?

    If op charges €100 on the month 1 then from month 2 it becomes the legal maximum rent for the property.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,978 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Interesting, to your knowledge has anyone ever been charged tax under this rule?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,294 ✭✭✭paul71


    Because she has only been there for 1 year. Market rent at the time she took up residence is a very fair and reasonable basis for revenue to determine the benefit in such a case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    No. But having not ever been a tax solicitor, accountant, revenue official, or personally involved in such a scenario, I can't imagine how I or the vast majority of people would ever be aware of someone else's tax affairs in this situation.

    Also, you aren't "charged" tax under this rule. As with many other taxation rules, you are required to declare it. If Revenue discover that you haven't declared it within the allowable timeframes, you many be subject to penalties and interest

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,294 ✭✭✭paul71


    I do, I know of about 20 to 30 over the last 30 years.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    All it takes is one busy body neighbour. Loose lips sink ships.

    Local Property Tax records, rent tax credit claims, vacant homes tax - plenty of ways for Revenue to find out who is living where.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    The gift rules aren't affected by the RPZ rules. The gift is considered to be the difference between what is being paid and what is market value. The RPZ rules mean you can't immediately increase the rent to what actual market value would be, so the gift tax would be liable for as long as the rent continues to be under market value

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,978 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Really? And how has this tax been enforced if the receiver of the 'benefit' has no money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,294 ✭✭✭paul71


    The same way all tax is enforced by the state.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Can the OP simply grant the sister a right of residence, or conversely maintain a right of residence themselves?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,910 ✭✭✭SteM


    I know of a lady in south county Dublin that has received a large tax bill from the revenue as she had free use of a house owned by her mother for 30ish years.

    There's one area of government that generally works well in this country and that's the Revenue, they eventually get what's owed to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,294 ✭✭✭paul71


    There are legal ways to minimize the tax impact. Deeds of covenant can be effective depending on the individual circumstances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    Was her mother alive or dead for those 30 years?

    It's an unusual one given that you can inherit or be gifted 300k+ from a parent



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    By the OP keeping a right of residence, the gift would be dramatically reduced in value. Not sure would the OP have to justify their reason for it to the Revenue?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,978 ✭✭✭standardg60




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Let's suppose this apartment is owned by the OP and used for her family and friends pleasure and convenience. There are a good many well enough off people who have a house or apartment somewhere that they make available to friends and family. Surely in this case, the OP can facilitate whoever they want use it and it's none of Revenue's business at all. We've borrowed such a house from time to time, no holiday rent paid - none of Revenues business.

    If my brother comes and cuts my grass out of the goodness of his heart, it's none of Revenues business that he hasn't charged me and hasn't paid tax on it. Ditto for child minding etc etc. Life is full of arrangements like this between family and friends.

    In this case, why can the OP not just let her sister live there and come to some arrangement between them as siblings as to costs of maintenance etc. I can't see any role for Revenue in such an arrangement?

    But the OP should get advice on this from professional in the field.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,294 ✭✭✭paul71


    Comparing a weekend guest stay or the cost of cutting grass to a perpetual rent free place to live is utter nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,294 ✭✭✭paul71


    There are hundreds of methods available to the state. Neither of us know the circumstances of either the op or her sister but Revenue will determine to best collection method and apply it.

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/contact-us/customer-service-contact/collector-generals-division.aspx

    That is the Collector generals website. The Collector General is charged with the duty of collecting taxes which have been determined by The Revenue Commissioners, there are several thousand pages on the website describing their collection methods.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    The gifts you're comparing to would all fall well within the limits set out by Revenue for which tax does not need to be paid. That's not the case for a rental which could be a gift worth tens of thousands per year.

    Also, just because you can't see a role doesn't mean the law doesn't exist. If you want to advocate for the removal of such a law, then by all means, do so, but the current law is quite clear

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money-and-tax/personal-finance/debt/specific-debts/

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,125 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Hi OP - I've been thinking about this some more (and despairing about the naivety of some posters above!)

    There are two approaches, depending on your sister's circumstances, and the reason you want to gift the apartment to her.

    If she's independent, not poor or disadvantaged, and you are being good to family - then you just need a good tax-advisor to work out the most tax-efficient approach, because tax is the biggest cost involved. (And of course a lawyer to help with the sales, and with formalising the paperwork for the caretaker-agreement she has while living there now!).

    But if she's disadvantaged (eg disabled, low-income, health problems, a domestic abuse survivor - there are lots of reasons) - then a straight gift may not be the best way to ensure she has a home for the rest of her life. Eg if there's a costly maintenance issue with the building and the management fees increase beyond what she can afford, or if she gets involved with a manipulative person who takes advantage of her.

    An option is for you to sell / gift the house to a 3rd party, who give her a tenancy for life with an affordable rent and who do all the property management. Some of the big voluntary housing agencies (eg Clúid, Tuath) have programmes for these types of deals, for older+disabled people. You may have to be a bit persistent to find out details, because often the lower level staff don't know about them. And I'm afraid I don't have current knowledge to help, beyond awareness that the schemes exist.

    If you want to go down the latter route, then organisations like Age Concern may have more details of possible options.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,910 ✭✭✭SteM


    Alive but seemingly Revenue became aware of the situation when her mother passed and that's when the bill arrived.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    I know a person (a solicitor) who has a relative living in his property rent free.

    In fact he is paying that relative to "mind" the house. Not sure but i think he mentioned €100 per month. The relative hands him back the cash plus more to cover the management fees whenever he sees him though. The relative also gives him back cash he puts up for any decorating, repairs etc.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,076 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    jennywondering it is great seeing you trying to provide for your sister. However for proper advice one would want a lot of personal details so it may be easier for you to give these details to a tax professional. It should not cost more than 500 euro.

    There are many factors that come to play. Has your sister a child, is she a vulnerable adult, is she in poor circumstances. If you have a business your sister can be treated as a favoured niece if she worked for you in your business.

    The state is not the big bad wolf many think. If your sister has not got the income to pay the tax( inheritance or gift) the state will defer it and collect it out of the proceeds Iof her estate. If she has no family and the proceeds of the house are immaterial to you then that is an option.

    Another option is to give her a lifetime right of residency and will the house to any family she has or to whomever is your preferred inheritor( maybe a charity). I would not worry about the rental gift aspect if you sister has a low income, as you cannot get blood from a turnip. The only aspect of that is that she can absorb the pressure tge state may or may not apply

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I can see the Revenue guidance but what is the root legislation that directs this?

    I make products and I set retail prices for them. I can set any retail price I like in theory (disregarding what customer will bear) so I can choose to sell a product at €50 or €1. This clearly affects the potential taxes to the state but despite this, Revenue have no control over what price I set. In instances where the state does fix prices, it's very rare and controversial.

    A property owner can surely likewise decide whether to let someone use their property free, at nominal rent or full rent. The concept of a peppercorn rent is around a long time. What legislation is there concerning peppercorn rent?

    What you're saying flies in the face of common sense and likely constitutional rights.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭dublin49


    I presume the motivation for transfer is to give your sister some security of tenure in case you get hit by a bus,why not leave it to a charity in a will but give her right of residency for life.Would you not try get your sister onto HAP ,you could then receive payment for her tenancy and it would regularize her situation,you could always rebate her any funds she is required to pay.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Capital Acquisitions Tax Consolidation Act 2003

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  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭hero001


    Once there is a transaction between connected parties, there are anti-avoidance tax laws that say that market value needs to be applied to the transfer. So you would normally be expected to have a valuation from an estate agent to support the value you use.

    Most of the comments have been about the gift tax side of this, however, the transfer will also be a disposal from a Capital Gains Tax point of view. If the market value is in the region of Euro 280K, and the cost is in the region of Euro 130K, this is a CGT liability on a gain of Euro 150K less your annual exemption (Euro 1,270), at 33%, payable by the person gifting the property. There is a way of offsetting CGT against Gift tax (CAT) which arises on the same event, but this is something you need to take some professional advice on.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    On what basis do the revenue commissioners get to decide how much a house is worth? If they didn't, the whole inheritance tax/CGT system would fall asunder. 'yeah, this 100 acre farm is only worth €1 as far as I'm concerned...'



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    If the market value is in the region of Euro 280K, and the cost is in the region of Euro 130K, this is a CGT liability on a gain of Euro 150K

    the original cost is not relevant if gifting the apartment, i'd have thought? it's relevant if the OP is selling an apartment they don't live in, as the tax would be liable on the OP - but in this case the tax would be liable on the OP's sister, who's getting the apartment (at market rate) and does not have a cost to offset against that value.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,493 ✭✭✭tohaltuwi


    In her 80s (about 2004) my mother sold the family home, transferred proceeds to me where I bought an apartment for herself and myself to live in. It’s not like OP’s situation except had to pay the tax as calculated by house sale value, so was pretty straightforward. Revenue will calculate present house value, so it may take a bit more time, but it shouldn’t be too big a deal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,856 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Capital Gains Tax has to be paid by the person gifting the apartment, if the current open market value is greater than the cost price, with all the usual adjustments for costs etc. That's assuming the gifter never lived in the apartment as their PPR.

    The person getting the gift can claim a credit of their CAT liability up to the amount of the CGT paid.

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/gains-gifts-and-inheritance/credits-you-can-claim-against-cat/credit-for-capital-gains-tax-cgt.aspx



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    cheers, i'd always assumed that the person benefitting (i.e. receiving the 'income') would have to pay the tax, as they're the one making the capital gain. i didn't know the gifter would also have to pony up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    If she has no kids, you are probably only making trouble for yourself. She'll have to pay tax and then if she were to die then you'd inherit and have to pay tax again. If she ever went into a nursing home they'd take 20% of it. I'd come up with an arrangement in writing. She has life time use of it, you still own it and she pays rent that covers the fees, insurance…..



  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭hero001


    Just to note that most of the Irish tax system works on a self-assessment system, so it's up to the taxpayer to calculate the tax due, so in this case you would need to calculate the market value.

    You could stick any number on your tax return as the sales price and pay little or no tax. But if you get a tax audit, it's then up to you to justify what you have done.

    Revenue will have their own valuation of the property, based on Local Property Tax returns and other sources. But if they are not happy with your valuation, they will look for the extra tax, plus interest (8%) and a tax penalty which range between 10 and 100% of the tax due.

    They can also publish you as a tax defaulter, but the total settlement including interest and penalties would need to exceed Euro 50K, before this comes into play. You can also normally avoid being published by making a qualifying disclosure to the Revenue once the audit letter arrives.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 818 ✭✭✭SupaCat95


    And when Revenue come for you, they dont just come for what they are owed. They come for the principle plus interest plus penalties. They are reliable like that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I don't have time, at the moment, to read the full act. But searching the full text for the term 'rent' throws up no results.

    This act deals with the transfer of property etc and the capital gains accruing to the benficiary etc.

    What we talking here is that the OP allows her sister to live in her apartment at a peppercorn rent. This is the OPs asset and for them presumably to enjoy and/or decide how they should use it. Why is this any of Revenues business?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,856 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Literally all dealings that have a financial impact are of interest to revenue.

    Charging a reduced rent is deemed a gift and is taxable as such.



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