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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You actually think that rowntree sat down with Nucifora and said "yea im not planning on selecting these 9/10 guys including ahern, hodnett and crowley".

    2/3 of which are universally thought to be the best prospects that have come through in munster in a while.

    You believe that, and you simultaneously believe that Nucifora gave him the job. Even though one of the main roles of irish coaches is to develop players for the national team.

    AND, you believe all that, and this is the same guy who was happy to play edogbo super young, gleeson super young, ben o connor (who actually seems a bit undercooked) super young.

    These are all thoughts you are capable of holding in your head at the same time.

    I have to say, congrats.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    I didn't dismiss Kleyn's comments, I questioned the blind faith some were putting into his self-serving generic Robbie Keane style platitudes.

    Bigging up a team mate isn't weird, but what you're implying is very weird - that Daly is making up a very specific lie about a team mate's growth during a very specific period and repeats it at multiple times during the interview.

    There was a million ways he could have bigged up Crowley but chose multiple times to refer to his growth during the EI Tour.

    That Emerging Ireland trip was just unbelievable for him, just the way he was able to step up. He kind of put himself in a leadership role out there as well and he’s brought that back into Munster as well.

    His confidence levels really went through the roof after that tour and rightfully so

    Why do you feel you know better than his own team mate? Maybe, just maybe, the IRFU and Dave did something that helped Munster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,969 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You think you didn’t dismiss Kleyn’s comment?

    Right…

    We've spoken about how little you can safely take from player and coach interviews. 

    It is incredibly naïve to believe every player is 100% honest and divulges everything in the media.

    To believe Saint Kleyn is above it is hilarious.

    Yeah, it is so extremely rare that a person involved in sport tells the full truth to media.

    Up until the last few weeks ago I thought that was a generally accepted fact, not some slur on the character of individual sportspeople.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,062 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Again, the specifics of the JGP situation aren’t particularly relevant , it’s the general point that we have a national coach who can really identify players who can do a job regardless of provincial pecking order or experience. You could look at Jimmy O’Brien, Mack Hansen as other examples of that same ability.

    All you’re doing is highlighting your unwillingness to credit him for that.

    Fwiw, I literally previously remember arguing you on here when you dismissed Healy and Crowley for not taking Carbery’s spot during his 2 year injury absence with Munster.

    Jesus Christ not this again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,969 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I’m more than happy to give Farrell credit for that (and have used that exact JGP example in the past).

    But you suggested Farrell did something that Rowntree didn’t because Rowntree was there for 3 years.

    Whereas the reality is that Rowntree was the head coach for a single game before the EI tour was announced.

    Add in the age profiles. It’s not remotely similar to JGP and Cullen. It’s just not.

    Jesus Christ not this again

    I absolutely understand why you don’t like me bringing up things you’ve said in the past tbh. FFF…



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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Ntamack and Jalibert had both made their France debuts at 19. When the talent is there, age doesn't matter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    I'll repeat myself, I've zero idea what happened between Dave and the Munster set-up in the lead up to the EI tour - just like you have zero idea.

    All I've said is that he has absolutely huge balls to come out with that quote if there is no truth at all to it.

    Given how toxic the Munster fanbase is to him and his knowing his comment would be analyzed, he'd need a wheelbarrow to carry them around if he is lying.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Surprised you actually posted those and showed everyone how you wasted your time trawling several months back only to dig up quote after quote that align with exactly how I described them earlier:

    I questioned the blind faith some were putting into his self-serving generic Robbie Keane style platitudes.

    If I was dismissing him back, then then you joined me tonight 'dismissing' poor old Jean and Shane Daly with your statement that matches my posts that:

    it’s extremely rare that a person involved in sport tells the full truth to the media

    I can see through your obvious attempts to goal post move and deflect from the fact that one of Munster's own players repeatedly cited the EI Tour as being beneficial to the development of Crowley. This wasn't some generic, 'Crowley, had a good tour' waffle, it was specific areas on tour that Crowley showed improvement and brought back to Munster and the impact it had on his game.

    But no, you obviously know better than a guy who has played with Crowley for years, just like 'ulster'u20s knows more than the guys who were in the room where discussions happened.

    I know you said you'd leave it a few times already but I will actually drop out for the rest of the week. Have a Champions Cup final to focus on, much better to look forward to that than getting flustered about some back-ups potentially missing a few matches in September.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I believe that it is extremely unlikely that Rowntree would be allowed to be hired if he stated a plan of not selecting ahern, hodnett, barron, crowley, and basically all their best players under 25. I also believe that it is extremely unlikely that the EI tour prompted a complete u turn for basically all of them, and that he would be unable to see their talent himself. I just think he knows more about rugby than that.

    I believe that to be obvious to almost anyone.

    I see above that you are leaving these discussions to concentrate your intellect on champions cup rugby. Fantastic. I look forward to no reply.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,969 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    This is a statement - one you made:

    it’s extremely rare that a person involved in sport tells the full truth to the media

    This is a question, one which I asked of you:

    would you not say it’s extremely rare that a person involved in sport tells the full truth to the media?

    Here’s the difference; I’m happy to believe both Kleyn and Daly. I’ve never said the EI tour brought no positives, even if I think it’s also normal for a player to big-up his teammate.

    You, however, want to completely believe Daly but completely dismiss Kleyn. It’s completely hyprocritical.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,329 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    BOD was 20. Darcy was 19. James Ryan was 20. Luke Fitzgerald had just turned 19.

    You are correct. When the talent is there age doesn't matter.



  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    James ryan debuted for munster 😅.Darcy and bod where like 2 and a half decades ago not really proof of anything.

    Munster have given more 19/20 year olds tha anyone caps id think but id not want ot to become the norm its not good for most



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,062 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I absolutely understand why you don’t like me bringing up things you’ve said in the past tbh. FFF…

    I'm sure you do, because I've repeatedly said it's bizarre and deliberately antagonistic.

    But a couple of weeks ago you were relentlessly attacking me for a post from February 2023 that Healy was absolutely sh…..ort of the required quality.

    Now you've pulled an even older one out of the air that's completely consistent with that, and you're acting like it's some sort of gotcha? I'm not seeing the point tbh.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,329 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    I dont think its good for most players to play international rugby at 19. Its cool to see but often even if they are ready physically i think their body gives up earlier



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,556 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Since the game went professional, Ireland have produced a few World Class players, I'd guess very few of them were capped at 19, BOD is probably comes closest.

    Even if Ireland were renowned for it, Munster at the time of the previous EI tour had a new coaching team, a new game plan, had to rest International players and an injury list yet some posters are trying to read into a team selection that Rowntree had to be shown (by Ireland) how good Crowley was. It's daft. Had Frawley not got injured the discussion would probably be redundant as he was the heir apparent to Sexton.

    The only issue most fans had with the EI tour (previous and proposed) is the timing of it. Why is this difficult to grasp?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,969 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    The point is I think you’re sometimes far too overly critical of Munster in a way that doesn’t match the reality. Like with Kleyn, Healy, Frisch, Crowley and now Rowntree.

    You’re pointing to him being there for 3 years but you know he was only head coach for 2 games prior to the EI tour.

    I will say tho, this was very good. 😉 Genuinely.

    Healy was absolutely sh…..ort of the required quality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    It's the Ireland thread, not the Munster one. SO not sure what relevance Munster youth policy has

    Larmour was also very young when he was capped.

    The likes of H Byrne etc all got caps in very early 20's.

    Not really true, Ireland have capped people when it made sense. In the case of Jailbert, he started the Ireland game and ended up with a serious knee injury which kept him out for a long time. hardly a success story?

    Ntamack had won a 6 nations and a World Cup, played a few games with the French Barbarians and was fast tracked into the French team with the single focus of winning a home World Cup. They wanted him in the 2019 WC squad so he could get the experience of playing in a World Cup before the 2023.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,969 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    The point I'd make there is that France had nearly a decade of massive underachievement before that happened, where I think their highest 6 Nations finish was 3rd?

    In that context, it's far easier to back a 19 year-old.

    But we can't say anything like that of Ireland, who've had their most successful ever decade.



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  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    Where lads like ryan, larmor, fitzgerald provincial starters at a specific position when they got their caps young 🤔



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,329 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    lets not forget that due to Frances proliferation of professional clubs, then can give senior debuts to kids at much younger ages, and in much greater numbers, that ireland can with our 4 clubs.

    before the U20RWC last year hadn't the starting french team something like 60 pro caps between them, and ireland had less than 10. They had more pro minutes between them than every other team in the competition combined.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,052 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The players who were capped since the EI' tour are all excellent players who would have been capped with or without the tour.

    And there were 10 players taken from the Munster squad who would very likely have seen actual game time during that tour when we were forced to bring back internationals early at short notice, which also affected their minute management later on in the season

    Ban billionaires



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Yes, they also use the ProD2 to give players a chance to play at a lower level to get experience. Something Ireland doesn't have access to.

    I don't see an issue with player progress in the Irish system.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Pub quiz question here:

    Ryan lined out for Munster against the Ireland U20 team in Thomond Park on his way back from a hamstring injury to gain valuable game time ahead of Ireland's summer tour to Japan. Ryan has played for Munster and Ireland before making his competitive debut for Leinster in September 2017.

    I remember for Larmour when he was playing in the 6 nations, Leinster said he was at least 1 year ahead of his planned progress and they only expected him to be having a big impact in the Leinster team(not international) the season after

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,329 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

    ireland are in the best state we've ever been in.

    different countries do it differently, and its naive in the extreme to point to other countries and say we should be doing that, when the condition are no where near similar.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    A lot of countries are trying to replicate Ireland, Australia to the point of hiring Ireland ex-coach and Performance Director, also Joe has hired that other lad who worked with him in leinster.

    A few times Aus have made reference to the Irish system

    England are trying, but failing, to implement central contracts

    The system has worked better than ever and people are still moaning.

    In terms of France, they ripped up the entire squad to win a home World Cup and didn't. So was it "better" than Ireland?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    "very likely" but based on previous season they wouldn't have. Ireland might of went ahead without the Munster players and they very likely could have sat on the bench or in the stands. Then Ireland would be accused of bias. So really it's a no win.

    I know it was a new coaching team that season but if you looked at previous seasons the chance of those players was slim to none. Even with the new coaching team the issue with the early games was the team trying to implement a whole new style of play and not because a few squad players went on a EI tour. IMO anyway

    Personally I loved the EI tour, interesting games of rugby watching the young players etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,052 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The past is not an accurate predictor of the future. Young players improve as they get older and more experienced, and last year was a new management ticket where this is even more true.

    The whole concept was dumb from start to finish. And it didnt achieve anything that the irish management team couldn't have achieved by simply expanding the training squads to look at players who have a realistic chance of making the irish team.

    Farrell brings the smallest squads he can get away with to tournaments.

    And the tour games themselves were rubbish, turgid affairs against half baked opponents as warm up games to a 'festival of rugby' in front of tiny crowds in the middle of the day

    Ban billionaires



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  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    It is a fairly simple fact that Jack Crowley, to use one very prominent example, was a clear beneficiary of the EI tour.

    If he doesn't go on that tour and play well, it is utterly inconceivable he gets capped against Fiji and Australia that Autumn, and from there makes the 6N squad (ahead of Joey Carbery).

    At the time he was selected, nobody thought he was remotely close to that. If you go back on this very thread and read the posts at the time of the tour, absolutely nobody even mentioned him as a loss to Munster's depth at the time, and he wasn't considered (by anyone who posted on the topic on this board) part of Munster's first choice 23 at that time.

    To go from that to being an Irish international in pretty short order is solely down to the EI tour.



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