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Transfer apartment to sister

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭✭28064212


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Where does it state this in the relevant Act quoted above?? Capital Acquisitions Tax Consolidation Act 2003 https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2003/act/1/enacted/en/html

    Rental income is no different from income from services or products. Businesses and individuals can generally decide what to charge for their services and products etc. With some exceptions like price controls on alcohol. Even where RPZs are involved, landlords can decide to charge less rent rather than more afaik?? They may have restrictions on raising rents but can reduce as they see fit. Is this not the case?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,931 ✭✭✭Allinall


    They can charge as low as they want.

    It's the recipient of the below market value rent that will have the issue with revenue. It will be deemed a gift and taxed as such.

    Section 5 in the act.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Extend the idea to say homeless people living in state funded accommodation or elderly people of little means in nursing homes. These all benefit from accommodation at little or no cost to them. The state isn't putting charges on them and saying to old Mary, you gotta tax liability of €K for your free place in this home.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Thank you. That is indeed draconian and an aspect that would be politely ignored I'd think by many. Essentially the state is saying you may own property but the state then dictates what choices you make in terms of letting others use it.

    How does leave the state itself, as pointed out above, it provides in various ways a very similar dispensation to citizens of lesser means.



  • Posts: 0 Darian Old Sax


    If you give it to your sister now you will have a CGT liability and your sister will have a CAT liability.

    For your CGT, 1st & last years it's assumed to be your principal residence for tax purposes regardless of reality. So you'll pay CGT on 26 twenty-eights of the increase in value. I think because you bought in 1996, you can use the current value of the purchase price as adjusted for the CPI. €130k adjusted for inflation from April 1996 to April 2024 is €235k, so you'd be liable for 26 twenty-eights of 33% of €45k. So about €15k of a CGT liability; probably a bit less as you can write off expenses eg legal fees.

    BTW, it sounds doubtful to me that a property bought in 1996 for IR£100k would only be worth €280k now. So expect to be audited all to hell by Revenue if you try and claim that's the current value. IR100k was fairly big money for a property in 1996, and €280k is fairly small money for a property today.

    Your sister would be liable for CAT at 33% on everything over the sibling threshold, so around €80k. I'm guessing she doesn't have ready cash to pay that; if you paid it, there's be a further €24 on the additional gift, plus €8k if you paid that, etc etc. So that's another €100k it'd cost you on top of your CGT liability if you pay your sister's CAT liability.

    I assume your actual goal is to ensure your sister has secure accommodation for the rest of her life? If this is the case, I'd suggest instead granting her an exclusive right of residence for life. These used to be valued at 10% of the value of the property, so it'd come in below her CAT threshold (assuming the €280k value is reasonable).

    An exclusive right of residence would grant almost the same level of protection as the title deeds if the priority is your sister having a roof over her head. In some respects more, as it would be effectively impossible for either you or her to accrue debts which could result in a lender taking the house.

    If you want your sister to be able to pass on the property as an inheritance you could leave it to her in your will, per stirpes so it will automatically pass to her heirs if she predeceased you. I think she'd still be liable for CAT at that point though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭hero001


    Adjustments for CPI of costs for CGT stopped 20 years ago. So the CGT cost price would be closer to Euro 160K. A Life interest would be worth considering. There are tables for valuing this, based on age etc, but I have not looking that for many years.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 Darian Old Sax


    You're correct, my mistake, I thought the CPI was applied up to present date. I missed that detail when I was looking it up before.

    Having checked, a life interest or exclusive right of residence would be valued at at about 54%, and would still leave the OP's sister with a hefty enough CAT bill in the region of €35k.

    A right of residence (not exclusive) on the other hand would be valued at 10%, which should eliminate the CAT liability altogether at the €280k valuation. Funnily enough, Revenue provide a formula for calculating the value of the right of residence, but then say they'll accept a valuation of 10%.

    For my money, the exclusive right of residence or life interest is the way to go if it can be made to work financially in terms of paying the tax due, as it gives the OP's sister the best protection in her old age. A non-exclusive right would rely on either the OP not predeceasing her sister or the OP's heirs not being barstards— for example, by using the absence of the word "exclusive" to enable them to move into the property and making the OP's sister's life unbearable. It'd be nice if people could be relied upon to be nice to their extended family but that is often not the case.

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/gains-gifts-and-inheritance/valuation-date-value-certain-benefits/rights-of-residence.aspx#:~:text=You%20can%20file%20your%20IT38,Revenue%20Online%20Service%20(ROS).&text=The%20value%20of%20a%20right,market%20value%20of%20the%20property



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    the state is saying you may own property but the state then dictates what choices you make in terms of letting others use it

    The state does this all the time with many, many aspects of everyone's lives. It's part of living in a civilised society

    How does leave the state itself, as pointed out above, it provides in various ways a very similar dispensation to citizens of lesser means.

    In much the same way that an individual can't enforce their own prison service - the state and an individual are not comparable or interchangeable in law. This particular law refers to individuals. It does not restrict the state from doing anything.

    an aspect that would be politely ignored I'd think by many

    They are free to do so. While Revenue are free to enforce the law. And if it comes to court, telling a judge "I think it's draconian, so I don't think the law should apply to me" is going to get you about as far as it would for any case

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I'm not so sure about that. For example as an individual citizen you can buy a car tomorrow and lend it or give it to whoever you like to use, so long as they are licenced and insured. You can do any amount of work for someone and not charge them.

    As to the state and the equivalence of laws applying to it, take VAT. When that was introduced, the state exempted itself and local authorities etc from VAT. This lasted so long till some private carpark owners in Dublin took a case to the courts for unfair competition. Their parking charges had perforce to be higher than those run by Dublin Corporation. They won and thereafter the state must charge VAT like commercial companies.

    So I don't quite buy the idea that the state can regard the OPs sister different from a tax pov, to another similar citizen whose accommodation is funded by the state. That's having your cake and eating it. One law for the citizen and another for the state.

    Taken to it's conclusion, this argument would say that the OP would be better to keep or sell her apartment and sure, let the state sort out her sister's needs. As that would be a lot more tax efficient. She's unlikely to do this of course and rightly so, but it shows up a very basic inequity. That's not in the interests of the state, otherwise it foots a bigger bill than it needs too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    You've been shown both the Revenue guidance and the primary legislation. You haven't presented a single piece of evidence to say that it's not the case, and continue to post "comparisons" which have absolutely no relevance whatsoever. I'm out

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  • Your post is not very clear, just to clarify the tax rules, the op as landlord would not be taxed on the difference between market value and payment. Income tax on the income.

    The tax exposure here is limited to cat for the sister.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I'm not arguing with you, I've accepted your proof!

    I'm simply stating there is a problem. By this situation, from a tax efficiency pov, the OP should ditch her sister and let the state look after her. That's crazy and wrong.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If this wasn't the tax treatment then there would be all sorts of challenges to Capital Acquisitions Tax and how it is levied.

    The OP not charging her sister €18k a year in rent (or whatever the sum is) is the equivalent of her gifting €18k to the sister, which is a taxable event for CAT. Same if she pays her sister's rent at a 3rd party property.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,099 ✭✭✭standardg60


    I wonder is this the loophole, pay someone to 'mind' the apartment for a nominal fee.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    This thread kinda reminded me of a cartoon I saw a while back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,931 ✭✭✭Allinall


    There's nothing stopping the OP from using their own property as they wish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The whole point of capital acquisitions tax is to tax gifts and inheritances. If you give somebody the free or cheap use of a residential property, that's a gift and, in the current rental market, a very valuable one. Naturally that attracts gift tax; why wouldn't it?

    It's absurd to suggest that this stops the OP using his property as he wishes; you might as well argue that taxing his earnings prevents him from working in his chosen profession, or taxing his gains prevents him from investing in shares.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I can think of some pertinent points

    1. when the law is an ass, when it's unenforceable then people disregard it. I'd be quite sure there are many such quiet arrangements in practice throughout the country. Revenue can check many things but they most certainly are not investigating the living and accommodation situation of each & every taxable individual to see if they are the beneficiary of help from another family member or friend.
    2. where such an arrangement is made for an elderly relative, it is clearly in the interests of the state to keep that elderly person in their own accommodation and off the states books. This taxable gift idea for use of property clearly appears to disincentive people helping elderly relatives.
    3. how does this relate to co habitating couples? Seán owns an apartment, he meets Sinéad in Coppers and takes a fancy to her. Sinéad leaves her rental where she's paying €1500 a month, moves in with Seán and lives rent free etc Should Revenue be following up on this gift and getting Sinéad to pony up?



  • Subscribers Posts: 42,004 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    People need state permission to use their property for various uses all the time. It's called "planning legislation".



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    1. CAT is a self-assessment tax so, yeah, it can sometimes be evaded in a family situation. But remember the Revenue usually know where you live (because they correspond with you there) and they know who owns the place (because land ownership is registered) and they know whether you're paying any rent and, if so, what rent (because that information can be found in the property owner's tax return) so this is the kind of thing they can pick up on audit without too much difficulty.
    2. As for elderly relatives, there's an exemption from CAT for the provision of a dwelling to a "dependent relative", and anyone who is aged over 65 is automatically considered to be dependent.
    3. As for cohabiting couples, this isn't an issue at all. It's a taxable gift if you give somebody the exclusive use of a residence. Having somebody stay with you as a guest in your own residence is generally not seen as a gift to that person.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Good news for the OP there as regards #2 above.

    Otherwise, we can all see the concept is full of holes and illogicality. As I say when the law is an ass….

    There should be difference at all between the OPs situation and say Seán putting Sinéad his partner up in either his own gaff or another he owns.

    How many individuals do Revenue audit each year?? Not businesses but plain ordinary citizens.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,099 ✭✭✭standardg60


    So OPs sister will have a CAT exemption, but it will need to be her 'main home' for another 26 months to qualify. No mention of a requirement that she should be paying rent in that time either. I wonder if there's also a CGT exemption for the OP in the same scenario.

    Edit, doesn't look like there is so OP will be liable for some CGT.

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/gains-gifts-and-inheritance/cat-exemptions/dwelling-house/qualifying-conditions-gift-on-after-251216.aspx



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,899 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I haven't read all the way through the thread to see if there's enough detail given about the OP's sister to say that she will qualify as a dependant relative. But, if she does, there are actually two CAT reliefs that are relevant to her — a relief for the provision of a dwelling, and a relief for the provision of reasonable maintenance. If the OP does provide rent-free accommodation to a dependent relative for three years before gifting the house to her, I'd argue that even if giving her the use of the house for three years is not exempt as the provision of a dwelling, it's exempt as the provision of reasonable maintenance. And even if it's not exempt under either of these, between the annual small gifts exemption and the group B threshold it may still be exempt, or largely exempt. So between one thing and another, the sister's CAT liability may be nil or very low.

    CGT is a different issue. Any liablity there would be the OP's, not his sister's. The transfer of the property, even by way of gift, would ordinarily be a disposal which would trigger liablity to CGT based on the market value of the property at the date of transfer. But the principal private residence CGT exemption is available to the extent that the property has, during the period of ownership, been the principal private residence of either the OP or of a dependant relative. So if the sister has been living there throughout the period of ownership, and has been a dependant relative the whole time, then there will be no CGT on the disposal.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


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