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Senua's saga :hellblade 2

  • 21-05-2024 8:12am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    Another disappointing underwhelming xbox release looks like . Are they in trouble ? I'm going play it later and decide for myself but looks like another let down . The last banger they released they shut down the studio !



Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,388 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Mixed reviews, some really good. The metrogame central one has me worried. 5/10 and they say the game, like the original, has a very poor understanding of mental health issues with the typical voices in the head and hallucinations tropes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    Seems like same game again . They led us on at one stage it was going to be bigger and better etc . Could Ninja theory be in trouble now !? Can't trust microsoft .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭recyclops


    If it plays and feels like the first then there is no problem in my eyes. Hopefully nice and short as dont want to be away from animal well too much



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,388 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭DeSelby83


    I had seen this from Metro but also have watched this video where they are working with who they say are experts in that field as well as people suffering with the illness who say that the game is very accurate in describing the illness.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,388 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    I've seen that as well and they did the same with the first game. They can say that it's accurate to mental health illness as much as they want. But I'm not getting fooled when they say the puzzles are a result of parediola when all I'm doing is solving Arkham riddle puzzles and how the voices in the person's head are like what schizophrenics experience when its actually just repeating the gross misconceptions Hollywood has about that illness.

    Being a bit harsh as I think as a game it works really well but as a representation for mental Illness it's really not good. I've even seen some pseudo science posers talk about it in articles and try to present it with the authority of a scientific paper.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    I'm just worried about game is fun / good to play or not . Must boot it up later . Ah well on game pass can just delete it again if it isn't hitting .



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,388 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Well if it's anything like the first game then you'll be well served. Im moaning a lot but it's just because it think it can do some stuff better but it's pretty good at being a game!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭DeSelby83


    Personally I'd take the word of a Professor of Health Neuroscience at the University of Cambridge and sufferers of psychosis ahead of some video game reviewers at metro who claim they don't know how well it represents psychosis and then go on to question the developer’s insistence that Senua’s portrayal is based on medical science and real people’s experiences.

    But that aside I really enjoyed the first game so I'd imagine I will enjoy this one too



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,415 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Probably the most honest review I've heard is that it's more of the original with some significant graphics and sound upgrades and decent gameplay upgrades

    Seems to go for more cinematic feel than core gameplay

    If you liked the first you'll probably like this one. If you didn't enjoy the first one then you'll almost certainly hate this one

    I think Ninja Theory should be applauded for keeping the gameplay and story tight and not creating another open world grindathon requiring 40+ hours of forgettable quests to accomplish the basic story

    Unfortunately I suspect their masters in Microsoft will not be impressed with such independent thinking and will probably kill the studio anyway

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,388 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    You have to aid that with "paid to be in promotional material for the game", which really changes the dynamic. As some one from academia, there's plenty of corporate shills in the profession.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 30,014 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    tbh what concerns me is that I read a few reviews suggesting the gameplay feels like a backwards step compared to the first - which I don’t think anyone would argue was a particularly mechanically robust game - and that the story is a lot more meandering and impersonal than the more intimate first. Some even suggest the audio and visual design is less clearly ‘motivated’ than the first. Even the most negative reviews though suggest the thing is a graphical powerhouse. But we’ll all find out how fair those criticisms / compliments are when we’ve played it.

    It’s one of those games that really struggles from the off, as Hellblade was not a game that immediately cried out for a sequel, let alone being transformed into a ‘Saga’. It was a tight, contained and personal story that stood proudly on its own terms - not perfect, but a compelling formal experiment. Justifying a sequel was always going to be a tricky ask, and one the reviewers seem conflicted on whether it pulled off (some yes, some no). I’ll certainly give it a go on Game Pass but maybe once I’ve tidied off one or two other games I’ve been playing. But a short running time is undoubtedly welcome,

    In some ways this game was of course the safest, most predictable route Ninja Theory could’ve gone - retreading familiar ground with a bigger budget, even if the first game was an admirable swing. But it sounds like they have original projects in the work too, so hopefully they aren’t victim to Microsoft’s current commercial ruthlessness and we get to see what else they have cooking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,389 ✭✭✭Cordell


    It is based, but it is not a 100% accurate representation. I remember some interviews where even the devs acknowledged that while they did research and even listened to people suffering from this condition in the end they were making a game which is art and entertainment, and not academic material. So who cares if it's not 100% accurate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    T

    Too many of these reviews are delving into nonsense . It's a game at the end of the day not a schizophrenic simulator . A lot the rest the game isn't exactly grounded in reality . Getting sick of them type of reviews to be honest . Is it a good game and is it fun to play and does it run well. That's all we should be focusing on .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    I liked the first game but puzzles pissed me off and the combat was cat . The world changing puzzles grew old fast . I'm going to give it a fair crack later but I've a feeling I might not finish this one . Think was mr matty plays that said in a review said it's not fun to play for good spells .



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 30,014 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    To be fair, looking at the first Senua and just asking is it fun to play and does it run well would be doing the game itself a profound disservice.

    The game has much bigger ambitions than that - whether it succeeds or fails or somewhere in between is up for discussion, but it deserves at least to be met on its own terms.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    Just booting it up now so we see .

    I see xbox have green lit a new ninja theory game so they must be safe for awhile 🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    My lord god the game is stunning .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    Gave it a good hour earlier. I didn't finish the first one, I think I didn't get very far as I tried playing it when I'd too much going on, but I have it installed on the Xbox so might quickly play through it before going much further in 2.

    But first hour or so was walking really slowly, in the rain, killing an odd viking, trying to match some shapes and generally not knowing what was going on. Playing with headphones is great though.

    It looks really nice but the best looking parts are the non playing parts where they give you close ups of her face. The gameplay sections look good but I'd not say a noticeable graphical leap over other good looking titles.

    Still the best rain since death stranding.

    Post edited by Grumpypants on




  • I'm only a few hours in but this game is savage. An audio/visual masterpiece. I've read some saying the combat is poor, I find it utterly brutal (not in the Irish meaning of the word). The puzzles are the same as before, probably the weakest point for me. But solvable very quickly then move on, its no big deal.

    I don't understand why anyone would expect them to deliver anything other than another Hellblade. Do peoplenwant them to stick in an open world map? Maybe some rpg progression? Like seriously, that's not Hellblade.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    7 years making a 5-7 hour game just to stick it on game pass . Will they make money off it?

    Enjoying it so far for what it's worth but I will be looking up puzzles when stuck just so it won't make me hate it .





  • That is the concern really isn't it? They don't just have to make money they have to make an abundance of money or risk being shut down. But I think I read they have already green lit Ninja Theory's next game. Not that that makes them safe I suppose.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    I got another good 90mins done today and it's really grown on me. I can see past all the, very fair, "interactive movie" criticism and have just sunk into enjoying it as an experience rather than looking for a traditional gaming experience.

    On a 65 inch OLED with headphones it's something else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,130 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    Prof Paul Fletcher

    Bernard Wolfe Professor of Health Neuroscience

    Areas of research

    psychosis, schizophrenia, learning

    Affiliation

    Department of Psychology, University of Cambridge

    Paul Fletcher trained in medicine before taking a PhD in cognitive neuroscience. He is the Bernard Wolfe Professor of Health Neuroscience at the University of Cambridge and a Wellcome Trust Investigator. He is a Fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, of Clare College Cambridge and of the Academy of Medical Sciences.

    His clinical work is on Huntington’s Disease and psychosis. In his research, he uses combinations of pharmacological challenges, neuroimaging and larger scale behavioural studies in healthy and clinical populations, with the aim of understanding the basis of learning and decision-making in the human brain.

    A central principle of his research is the idea that the brain is occupied in the process of forming predictions and associations to minimise error and uncertainty and to maximise reward. In many instances the cognitive and reflective processes engaged with this goal can conflict with underlying automatic and habitual processes. Though we feel in charge of how we think and act, we are prey to many subtle signals from our bodies and our environment and these can seize power and shape our decisions and behaviours. The end result may be that our behaviours that can seem irrational and in conflict with our longer term goals and plans. Furthermore, the mind constructs reality such that, even under normal circumstances, what we experience and believe has been profoundly shaped by our expectations.

    ------------

    Jesus, the more I read, the more obvious it is that he's a corporate shill 🙄

    Decades of research in the field of psychiatry are obviously no match to the expertise of Metrogame Central.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,388 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    And like all people in academia he is under enormous pressure to get funding and a nice collaboration with a corporate partner will bring in some funding and keep the board off your back for a while.

    I can't blame him either. I'd have told midway that the juggle combo system of mortal Kombat increases the luminescence lifetime of the molecules I was working with if it got me some funding.

    But if you want to think Arkham riddle puzzles are a visual symptoms of psychosis then go ahead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,130 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    Arkham riddle puzzles... what are you on about?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,388 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    The puzzles in hellblade just being copies of the riddler puzzles in Arkham games but supposedly they represent pareidolia symptoms of psychosis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,130 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    Seems a tad reductive considering everything else that goes on in the games in terms of things like the binaural audio and the use of voices to represent intrusive thoughts.

    It looks like the Ninja Theory genuinely tried to be empathetic in their portrayal of Senua and engaged with experts and people with mental health issues to help inform how they approached the game but obviously that's not good enough these days. Shame on them.





  • I don't think anyone is under the illusion that the game is giving an accurate representation of psychosis. They've taken elements like voices and shimmer lights and...made a video game out of it. The main character has psychosis. The main character in a video game has psychosis. Sorry to be pointing out the obvious.

    It's very tiring being a video game fan these days. Just enjoy the game, it's really good. It's an AV spectacular. That is actually what it is intended to be so if you're criticism is that you want it to be something else then really it's just trolling to be honest.

    It's like me saying one of Annapurna's games is not Assasins Creed. I'd be right, but it just sounds ridculous.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    Two hours in & I share your sentiment with OLED and headphones . The game is stunning to listen to and look at . I don't mind that on rails cinematic treat like order 1886 style . 9/10 so far for me .

    Ok so I am starting the 3rd chapter of 6 . I don't have any negative comments about the game so far . Just shows you reviews can put you off but need play the game and see for yourself . Am I losing the run of myself here to say it's nearly best game iv seen yet ? visuals are photo realistic at times !? The fight at end of chapter 2 is absolutely ridiculous . Peak video games. The use of the audio + light and dark visually is stunning .

    Post edited by brady12 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    That fight in the night with the fire and blood ritual. The whole run up to it and the actual fight is gorgeous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    So good . Id love just repeat that section .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    Shows how spoilt we have become, I walked through a puddle and it didn't splash and I was thinking they really missed a step 😂.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭DeSelby83


    I reached this last night, seriously intense, what a great run up and set piece.





  • Just finished. Wow, what a game. Whatever the criticism, whatever the praise, the one thing I've come away with from the game is what an utterly powerful and important story to tell and wow! what a medium to tell it through. This story deserves nothing but the best and that is what it got.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    I remember that puddle alright 😂.

    On chapter 4 now . Still a 9/10 or more so far for me . Stunner .



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 30,014 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Ended up playing the first two chapters over the last two evenings, alongside Lorelei sessions. Short sessions definitely recommended for this one.

    Sadly, it's a pretty underwhelming sequel for me thus far. It's been seven years since I played the last game, so don't have a great memory of the ins-and-outs, but here the strengths feel like the same strengths of the last game, and everything else (other than the graphics) feels either like a disappointing lack of progress or even a stumble backwards.

    Yes, the binaural audio is still a great experience, and yes it's a graphical showcase. And, just like the first one, those aren't shallow, spectacle only technologies here: they emphasise the story and character in an important way. Senua's story wouldn't be as strong or as intimate if the performance capture wasn't so rich, and the set pieces wouldn't be as strong if the lighting wasn't as dynamic as it is here (definitely a good showcase for Lumen). Some of the stuff you encounter is certainly striking or harrowing. I don't think it's on the level of Alan Wake 2 - which IMO remains a high water market for graphical fidelity and art design ingenuity - but it certainly is a testament to both technology and the art department at Ninja Theory. The presentation is impressively filmic too, with just the right amount of post processing effects to create that distinctive cinematic look (thankfully, though, it’s hitting a comfortable 60 FPS with DLSS on my PC).

    But boy, there really isn't a whole lot of game to grasp onto here. I've played a lot of games with minimal interactivity through the years, so I'm not opposed to it: games can be whatever they'd like to be. But the problem here is that so much of the interaction feels turgid or uninspired. The combat is pretty dire, frankly, and overly simplified - feels like more you're reacting to pre-determined script directions than being involved in a fight (and boy they really like reusing 'aha there was another enemy behind you, just outside your peripheral vision!' trick). The "puzzles" (used very lightly) are just a nuisance used to pad out the runtime (apologies: I don't think they do much to add any additional insight into Senua's state of mind, trauma or psychosis), and the navigation boils down to 'go straight for story, or side path for one of two collectibles'. There's some puzzling decisions too, like how the glorified audio logs you unlock just fade away if you try to walk back to the main path. It also stumbles narratively, feeling less focused than the first and removing much of the intriguing ambiguity that made it such a notably intimate, insular story about Senua.

    A game being slow is not a problem. A game being sluggish is a problem. And that's what I feel for a lot of Hellblade 2: I'm just holding the button forward to walk or lightly sprint forward at a frustratingly unhurried pace, but a lot of the time it barely feels like I even need to be doing that. There's been times - especially during the extended opening on the beach - where it felt entirely arbitrary when I was handed 'control' and when it was taken away. It's been two-three hours of game that already feels like it could've been handled in half that time without losing any of its power or resonance or atmosphere.

    Is what’s happening on screen so extraordinary or special that it justifies such a loss of interaction? As impressive as some of it is, I just don’t think it clears that threshold as often as needs to. The compromise feels too large IMO.

    Ninja Theory are technical wizards, and they're to be commended for doing their own thing. But if Hellblade 1 was a flawed but brave step in a different direction for them, this is an all too safe and somewhat redundant retread of the same material - even arguably less compelling narratively and gameplay-wise. The beautiful presentation immediately shows that seven years have passed since the first game. Sadly, in playing the game it feels like time (and NT's game design) hasn't moved on at all.

    Credit where it’s due though: hell of a photo mode.

    Post edited by johnny_ultimate on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    Id go as far as saying it is not much more than a tech demo. But what a demo, Unreal, Xbox and LG OLED all shine. My hard drive is rapidly filling up with screenshots.

    I did struggle with the opening. Couldn't really see the graphical leap they talked about as everything is so grey and grim. My finger was sore from holding up to walk. At times I felt if they just let you run the game would be about 20 mins long.

    But the more I got into it the more I got engrossed. I just finished the hidden world and the "lava" part. The music, the visuals as you move through that final section was just perfect. I'd love that in a big orchestral live show.

    Not sure if the screenshots do it justice. I've said it before but a dark room, OLED and headset is the best way to play this.

    Post edited by Grumpypants on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    Don't get me wrong I love the game so far but how in the of god did it take them 7 years to make it !!!? I find myself laughing playing it thinking about it . It's a walking simulator with bare minimum gameplay mechanics . Not taking covid as an excuse it's comical took that long surely making good loss on it ?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 52,388 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    It's a time team. The seven years would also factor in the preproduction which could take a long time. Also the character modelling and animation is best in class and very difficult to do. Games take a lot longer and are more difficult to make than most people realise and it's kind of infuriating when people of ignorant of the process demand more.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    Im always a bit wary about them saying it took 7 or 8 years. A good chunk of that could have been 2-3 people gathering ideas, figuring out new tech. I'd say the main dev effort was a much smaller window.

    But if you are a small team that is hard focused on delivering their vision. Scaling up to a bigger team to move faster can lose that control and focus.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    Iv had no bugs and it runs great . So they made a great job of it . Still can't see a world where it's going make money .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    Finished it tonight. Powerful stuff. Not a huge amount of gameplay in there and combat Is repetitive and not that intuitive , but the overall experience was well worth my time.

    Great game pass game as I wouldn't spend €50 on it but very happy that I got to play it.

    Going Straight into playing the original now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    Finished it yesterday . Loved it . Shorter games are nice in this day and age they don't out stay there welcome . Could this game be ripe for DLC?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭brady12


    Just realized can play sections of chapters so going re play draugr ceremony before deleting game .



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 30,014 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Opted to forge ahead with this since it's short. Now into chapter 5 (of six, I believe) and if anything my opinion of it has only soured further. The combat is, I'm sorry to say, atrocious. Every encounter makes me roll my eyes when another random enemy lunges at you from behind, until the arbitrary number you need to kill to proceed has been reached. It's kind of bizarre, because Ninja Theory have made much better than this in the past. I would never have considered Enslaved or DMC masterpieces of game or combat design, but they're on a different level compared to this.

    The story is rambling and uninteresting - there doesn't seem to be much in the way of coherent stakes or motivations, and it actively undermines some of the intriguing stuff about the last game. I've only been playing one chapter per session, but the game feels much, much longer than the five hours I've put into it because there's so much fluff and filler in even a game this modestly scoped.

    At least the last stretch of chapter 4 was a solid spectacle, even if again there wasn't much in the way of gameplay to grasp onto. Other than that, this is proving a rather frustrating creative fumble from Ninja Theory - a sequel that is a step back from its predecessor in every conceivable way other than graphical presentation.





  • All valid arguments. From a purely gaming perspective, I can see how it falls short.

    Bur to me there is a powerful message about trauma in there and I think its a case of count yourself lucky that you don't get it.

    The wave after wave combat. Dodging, parrying, dodging parrying (when will it end) until you finally let leash has a particularly powerful meaning behind it. It is without doubt one of my favourite combat sequencing in gaming.

    It is possible I am reading too much into it, maybe making associations that do not exist. But that is story telling. A poem can have very different meanings personal to each individual.

    Actually I think that is a very good way of describing this game. It is a poem, with a dark but very important meaning.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 30,014 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Having finished the game, I very much get what it's trying to do thematically. But if it's a poem, it's for me a bad poem: full of confused theming, trite imagery and several aesthetic missteps.

    There's nothing the game does that the first game didn't do substantially better: that's also about trauma, but more personal and intimate. This awkwardly tries to revisit some of those themes with a more epic scope story, but loses focus and purpose in the process. It belatedly settles on being a story about confronting your past (or not) and forging one's own destiny, but these are very well-trodden themes that this struggles to say anything refreshing about. It also tries to explain away some of the phenomenon seen throughout the game, but given the addition of multiple other characters throughout it actually just confuses things further IMO and renders a lot of the journey confused and arbirtray. The fighting seemed less a desperate, urgent fight for survival for me than waiting for the designers to arbitrarily decide how many enemies you had to fight in this particular encounter. I definitely get what the former is what they were going for, but it didn't work at all for me.

    I also think one of the biggest error the game makes is committing to the 'one shot' gimmick popularised by God of War. I think this really hurts the game in fundamental ways - it makes the pacing ponderous and sluggish, while also losing the impact that cuts and shifts in perspective would allow.That it relies so much on clichéd video game imagery - such as the fantasy / dream sequences and the 'let the neon dots tell you a story' walking sequences - hurts it a lot as well.

    Don't get me wrong: if the game worked for you and moved you, that's fantastic. That's what art should do. No reading or reaction is right or wrong. But for me the game was a collossal disappointment - learning all the wrong lessons from Ninja Theory's first Hellblade game, and making a substantially lesser sequel as a result.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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