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IRFU Funding Model changes

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,466 ✭✭✭✭phog


    The gatekeeper for all such appointments is the IRFU



  • Registered Users Posts: 513 ✭✭✭Rugbyf565


    This is a disgrace and no doubt done to appease mouthy Munster and ulster fans

    Mod: Trolling



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Leinster hold a big squad because a huge number are away and not available all season. This is helped because some of them are on central contract so they can fund additional squad players

    If the funding is no longer in place or they are paying for the central contract players that mean they have to find budget from existing squad players. So the squad reduces.

    So lets say Leinster budget is 10m for players outside of central contracts. The budget is still 10m but now they have to pay 30% for the central contract players. Lets say that take 2m from the 10m. they now have a player budget of 8m. That's less players because they can't pay for the same amount of players with 8m they could with 10m



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    They approve, but they don't pick .

    So if the province picks a coach who is not a success the issue with not with the IRFU, the province picked the coach in the first place and recommended him/her to the IRFU



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    The 'up to' made me raise an eyebrow but at the same time 30% seems a tad high. I think i would have done a flat 20 or 25%.

    Overall, i think a good thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,466 ✭✭✭✭phog


    There's zero point in being the gatekeeper if you devolve your responsibility. Rubber stamps in business is risky business



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I responded to a post that said it was the IRFU fault for some head coach hires, it's not. Jumping around for another few posts is not going to change that

    In the case of Munster and Van Grann, they had no issue at all with him till he said he was leaving, they asked the IRFU to resign him etc. His hiring came on the recommendation of Munster and Rassie. Do you really think the IRFU was going to go back to Munster and say no?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,466 ✭✭✭✭phog


    You seem to think all appointments are just rubber stamped - if that is the case then that's poor diligence by the IRFU





  • How do you split the responsibility for these sort of appointments so? What share of the decision is taken by the province and what share by the IRFU?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Tipp1991


    Of course there's agreement but ultimately it's the IRFU's decision. Whats the point in having a performance director if each province was to go off any hire whoever they wanted?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I never said that, I said the IRFU are not the people who identify the candidates. They are just part of the approval process.

    As I said in the case of Van Grann, with Munster and Rassie backing Van Grann do you think the IRFU would turn around and reject the proposal?

    Or when Munster came to IRFU asking for his contract to get extended that the IRFU would say no?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    But they do, the head coach is the only role the IRFU has any say in, the rest of the coachs are down to the province.

    The province also pick the head coach as I said, not the IRFU, so again the province put forward the coach they want, not the other way around



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭StormForce13


    So was it the IRFU or the Ulster Branch who paid the SRU to have Dan McFarland released early from his Scottish contract?

    And was it the IRFU or the UB who paid off his contract when he was terminated?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,466 ✭✭✭✭phog






  • You're absolving Munster of any role in poor decisions that have been made, and, not for the first time, seeking to cast blame at the IRFU.



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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    by all accounts the figure is going from €8m to €10m, not the other way round.

    this is all hypothetical anyway, lets see what happens.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    In a normal market and with restrictions on who can be signed (majority irish), i think that would mean player wages would go up, but possibly not squad sizes? It is hard to predict though. I guess provinces not competing on wages would affect that but some upward pressure.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Player wages going up significantly in a monopolistic system like irish club rugby is the last thing the IRFU will allow to happen.

    The wage levels dont seem to be a detriment currently to holding on to players, so im not sure what is expected to change after these changes are implemented. Maybe more room for IQ players from abroad? More likely expanded academies in my opinion, with perhaps one or two extra spots in squads.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,786 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    IRFU want all 4 provinces to thrive and contribute international standard players to play for Ireland.

    With that in mind it makes no sense to have any one province top heavy with centrally contracted players.

    This is an attempt to rebalance things a little I suspect.





  • Yeah, obviously.

    But the issue is the production of players, not the granting of central contracts to them at the time when they've already demonstrated themselves to be of significant international standard.

    Simply throwing more cash at the other provinces won't address this issue unless it's specifically targeted at improving player development pathways. Allowing the other provinces to spend more cash on NIQs or pay their own existing players more does nothing to address that issue.



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  • Administrators Posts: 54,168 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This change is unlikely to affect centrally contracted players. Those are going to be concentrated in Leinster for the foreseeable future.

    The change will come at the levels below that.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,786 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    I think it'll add to player mobility between the provinces to a degree.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    The academies are already fully funded by the irfu as far as i know. It would be cool if they paid them a little more though.

    I guess it could make provinces more competitive for the best IQ players from abroad.

    The other provinces pathways are looking better to me to some extent underage but the results remain to be seen. There does seem to be spending happening there.





  • Not unless there is also a change to the policy around allowing the provinces to outbid each other for each other's players.

    If the IRFU sign off on that, they're basically just allowing for more wage inflation as they effectively bid against themselves for the same players.

    There is scant enough evidence that more movement will actually lead to more international quality players available for Ireland - i.e. there isn't much evidence to suggest Max Deegan will be any better a player if he moves to Ulster etc.



  • Administrators Posts: 54,168 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    It doesn't necessarily have to drive wages up. It could force player movement through teams being forced to offer reduced terms to players on the fringes of their squad. That same player could get a better contract at another province.

    Hypothetically, if Leinster were paying 30% of their central contracts this year, could they afford to pay a player of the experience of Max Deegan to be a bit-part fringe player for them? Probably not, so Deegan would move elsewhere.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on




  • But we've no clarity on how this works at the moment - our current understanding is that the provinces can't outbid one another, the other provinces can simply match the offer from the home province. This is why some guys have left to go overseas in the past.

    What you're proposing is still essentially a scenario that allows out-bidding, but agreed in that scenario it wouldn't necessarily lead to wage inflation.

    On the overall though - if it is the case that the funding pool has increased (which it seems to have), but there isn't a change to NIQ policy, and there doesn't seem much rationale to expand the squads, then it seems we're just going to pay our existing players a bit more?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 704 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    The present funding model (insofar as anyone outside the IRFU knows) takes into account the gate receipts at each Province. Leinster average 18,000 at URC games (URC avg = 9893 in 22/23 season). Provinces keep gate receipts but it's all factored into what funds come from HQ. Paper exercise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    No Im not, you want to point the finger at the IRFU for poor choices at the provincial level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    If you think these players will suddenly move to another province just because the IRFU have forced their province to stop paying them I think you might be mistaken, I think we will end up forcing players from Ireland.

    If you are a player like Deegan who wants to stay at Leinster and it comes to end of his contract, Leinster turn around and say well due to this change we can't keep you, we want to but we can't. Why would this player want to stay within the IRFU? jump to England/France, the IRFU have just screwed you over

    I doubt that, as I posted I can't see the IRFU suddenly increasing player wages by 33%> this is just based on years of the IRFU and how they run the game in Ireland which has been a success. Handing over 33% more of their revenue for what reason? I don't see the business case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    then it seems we're just going to pay our existing players a bit more?

    Which makes no sense? it's not like Ireland is losing players now due to wages, so people seem to think suddenly the IRFU have agreed to give a 33% raise to all players in Ireland

    If I go back to Jackman said years ago, when the big French TV deal came into play. Grenoble thought they would suddenly be able to buy in big names and have a better squad. But all that happened was they ended up signing the same players they would of without the additional TV money, just paid them a lot more. So it was no big change for Grenoble

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,466 ✭✭✭✭phog


    No I'm not, you started this in some effort to turn the discussion into a provincial mud slinging exercise. Foolishly, I entertained you.

    It won't happen again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    No I didn't, I responded to someone else who raised the point.

    Read the thread next time before you start slinging around accusations



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Mod: Clo-Clo and phog to not reply to each other on thread again.





  • Yeah, I completely agree. It's why this doesn't really make a huge amount of sense.



  • Administrators Posts: 54,168 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    If you think these players will suddenly move to another province just because the IRFU have forced their province to stop paying them I think you might be mistaken, I think we will end up forcing players from Ireland. 

    But in this hypothetical scenario, a player like Deegan leaving Ireland wouldn't really be a loss, he's never going to trouble the Ireland selectors.

    In this scenario where Leinster are forced to offer reduced terms to players like Deegan there are 3 possible outcomes:

    1. He accepts the reduced terms.
    2. He moves to another province, and therefore talent is being more effectively utilised.
    3. He moves to England or France, which frees up his entire wage to be better invested elsewhere.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Ulster should value Deegan more than Leinster and it makes no sense that he can only attract the same wage at both provinces. It's a flaw in the system - which will never be perfect.



  • Administrators Posts: 54,168 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Kind of agree.

    I think Ulster can pay him more if we offer him a higher category of contract than he's on at Leinster. But I imagine that by this stage he's on a fairly decent contract at Leinster, and Ulster may have had to offer him a stupid contract to make it worthwhile.

    The flaw for me is whether or not it's correct that Leinster's 3rd/4th choice in his position should be paid as much, if not more, than the 1st or 2nd choice at Ulster for example. This is where the system becomes an inefficient use of money.

    If the likes of Deegan stays at Leinster (which he did) then his wage should reflect his position in the pecking order at his club, and the changes to the funding model are kind of a forcing function on that as it will force the likes of Leinster to think more carefully about where the money is spent if they are having to contribute more to other player contracts that historically they haven't had to contribute to.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I always felt the CC distribution from next season of 10 vs 1 each elsewhere, was unsustainable. It's couched
    in vague language - "up to 30%" - but this does appear to me some step to redress the imbalance that would have existed if still 100% union funded.





  • It's there for good reason though - ultimately it's the same fundamental Irish playing pool and the same ultimate payor, the IRFU.

    Max Deegan isn't in the Ireland squad because he's not as good as Jack Conan or Caelan Doris. I can't see the logic for how he's going to become better than them by moving to Ulster. He gets lots of game time as is.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I don't think he is going to become better. But him moving to Ulster can make the provinces better and if Leinster replace his role with a younger player and Ulster don't have to look elsewhere it is even possible the overall wage bill goes down.

    Unless the argument is simply the IRFU don't give a crap about the provincial performances at all

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,466 ✭✭✭✭phog


    The CEO said the new model is more transparent, but as always, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Let's wait and see

    In essence, this new model is simpler, more transparent, more equitable and delivers better incentivisation and alignment



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Reducing the number of Irish players in the system and sending them overseas is a positive how?

    You are making one of the provinces weaker and also making the entire system weaker, including Ireland. Deegan was captain of the EI tour.

    Not sure why any Irish supporter would paint this as a positive.



  • Administrators Posts: 54,168 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    It's not a positive but it's also not a negative. Max Deegan moving to England or France would have no impact whatsoever on Irish Rugby.

    To suggest it makes Ireland weaker is laughably hysterical.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I understand the argument that it would make one of the provinces weaker.

    But with regards Ireland, you're on one thread claiming that bringing Haley (who has 1 cap ) back in would be a "huge call" while simultaneously here saying losing Deegan (who has 2 caps) would make Ireland weaker?

    That doesn't seem consistent to me.





  • But that’s not without a cost - the other provinces will neglect player development if they think they can just constantly fill in their squad with Leinster players, and this sort of move while making Ulster better makes Leinster worse too.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    It is a negative, you suddenly make one of the provinces weaker, that has a knock on affect on their ability of Leinster to play in two competition, which means less money for the IRFU if they don't make knock outs/finals and then less money for the provinces because the IRFU are making less.

    The last resort for any Irish fan should be thinking its a good idea for players to have to move overseas to play rugby.

    Deegan is a capped international, he is just outside the squad and a few injuries and he would come straight in, this was seen as his role as captain of the EI tour. Won a Young World Player of Year award as well which is no mean feat. Quality player

    "laughably hysterical" 😓



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Deramore


    What is the obsession with Deegan? Of the 6 back rows that started the Ulster v Leinster game the other night he probably played the worst. And of the 6 only Conan is close to the Irish team. Who cares if he plays for Leinster or Ulster or the Free Jacks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,846 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    Really? And how did your super subs manage against Ulster or in SA. Nah, us provinces are fine..

    Deegan could have been a good player, but you can only get good by playing in big games, and he's reaping what he sewed there. You can also see Penny starting to hit his level too. None of those guys are good enough for the other provinces to bother with, well maybe Connacht..

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives


    the other provinces will neglect player development if they think they can just constantly fill in their squad with Leinster players

    Possibly 1 of the most "The Sky is Falling Down" comments, I have read here for a while.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,336 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    You know who else was on the Emerging Ireland tour and was also a Young Player of the 6N Championship?

    James Culhane - who now is on a senior deal, and should be stepping up to make senior minutes. Deegan's gap would be filled very quickly.

    Also, it would take quite a few injuries to get Deegan into an Ireland squad - but that's by the by (seeing as Timoney, Prendergast and Coombes are all ahead of him based on international squads of the last twelve months).

    If Deegan went to Ulster instead of re-signing (or abroad, a la Moloney) Leinster fans would not have seen him as a great loss. They'd 100% be ready to jump on the Culhane wagon

    There is not a hope in hell of another province saying "We do not need to develop players; Leinster will keep us going" in the fashion you've just said. Zero. Fans want homegrown talent regardless.

    Ulster fans would prefer to see a guy like Doak Jr breaking through than having to sign Ed Byrne. Munster would prefer O'Leary Kareem to become a star than having to rely on importing someone like Tom Farrell. Connacht fans would prefer to see a guy like Oisin McCormick own the 7 jersey rather than say Scott Penny making the move West.

    Given the IRFUs heavy hand in Academies and the like - that kind of "Erahh be grand" attitude is just not going to happen.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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