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Increase in Anti-EV Media Articles

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Battery swap was tried 10yrs ago. Failed then and it will fail now. Because its a solution only people who don't use EVs think they need.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    How any of these EV where hybrids with like 0.5km of range on a battery. Very likely they hit people while on the ICE.



  • Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭DrPsychia


    Not talking about battery swap as an alternative to cable charging. Battery swap/recharge stations are an awful idea.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Ok, sorry I misread what you posed.

    Basically manufacturers, should have easy to repair batteries not glued sealed as some are. But this is like the right to repair the EU are fighting people like Apple on. It's a version of forced obsolescence.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The flipside is that as it turns out that the battery packs usually fail with:

    1. unintended water ingress

    2. overheating

    3. bad chemistry

    4. manufacturing defects

    5. internal mechanical damage

    6. external mechanical damage.

    If the packs are made serviceable they usually are more prone to 1, 5. If all the bits are sealed for life and kept in place by foam or similar those two are not going to happen ever unless 4 happens. The 2, 3 are obsolete now, 4 should be taken care by the 8 year warranty. So the 6 is the only one that properly sealed for life battery pack makes impossible to solve.

    So it provides more reliability basically over the lifetime of the battery pack.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Pros and cons.

    I think the issues is the 8yr warranty isn't enough on such an expensive component. Making it repair easier reduces the economic cost of repairs.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,051 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    2-year warranties on engines are enough for people to regularly buy a VW car with an engine. I think the battery warranty FUD is another one of those cases of media misunderstanding has affected people's judgement.

    Manufacturing defects in a battery are very likely to have become apparent in the first 8 years of ownership. I think a big reason for the mixed messaging is due to expected cycle life degradation. A 24kWh Leaf from 2011 needed 1,200 cycles to hit 150,000km, that's very different from an ID.4 which can do the same in 365 cycles.

    As we see mass-market cars moving to LFP batteries we should be expect 3,000 cycles to be normal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Oh I agree.

    Unfortunately since they've let the FUD go unchecked. I don't see how they are going to fix that perception without doing something to reassure the consumer.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Exactly, and apart from early battery chemistries the degradation issue is pretty much solved now by just about every battery manufacturer (Looking at you AESC, although this could be due the lack of cooling in LEAF).

    Once you get past the 8 year battery warranty period without a failure you are very likely good to go for another 10 years or the end of life of the car without any noticeable degradation, unless the battery fails due to water ingress or internal cooling leak or some impact damage. And sealing the components well and stopping them from vibrating will shelter the battery cells, cooling system and the internal connections from lots of issues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    If you think telling people your going to seal their batteries so that in the unlucky event (low %) of a problem after 8 yrs time it will make the EV unviable to repair is going to fix the public's fears of used batteries, and thus the trade in values of new EVs and thus sales of new EVs I think you're mistaken.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,559 ✭✭✭RoboRat


    If you looked before crossing and they were absolutely bombing it, it wouldn't matter if they were in an ICE or an EV. If the engine noise would have made a difference, then you weren't paying enough attention.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,613 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Yeah manufacturers need to back up their over confident statements on long term battery use with solid long term guarantees - and it will cost them very little to do this if what’ they’re saying is correct - in short it’s actually hurting their new car sales so why not just do it - overnight you’ll see more consumer confidence



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,140 ✭✭✭innrain


    This article is a clear FUD and shows what the OP felt when started this thread. As previously said the study is completely irrelevant as it is focused on a dataset which is no more. Similarly I could write a study on the effect of lead from petrol burned in ICE engines. Correct scientifically but pointless. The danger was recognized and safety measures were implemented in 2019. 95% of the EV fleet was sold from 2020 to date according to SIMI data.

    The speed with which the said "news" spread is astounding

    some with exaggeration from twice to trice

    The original article is here if anybody wants to read it. it is free access.

    https://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2024/05/01/jech-2024-221902



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Limiting warranties to the years make sense because nothing lasts forever but associating warranties to mileage shouldn't happen in EVs. MG is the closest to this, they offer unlimited mileage warranty for the first 12 months



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Short warranty made sense on ICE maybe. Less so on EVs when so much of its value and function (especially used) is tied to one component.

    Used prices are directly effecting new prices. And consumer confidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,613 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    OK I agree to a point - this EV motors forum has mainly been populated with people buying new EVs - so considerations around what happens in 8 years or 200kms or whatever to their warranties are mostly far from their minds but the likelihood is they’ll have ditched that car long before then - but they’re still impacted in their pockets because long term uncertainty for consumers right now has to be matched with lower prices in their minds - as long as uncertainty in the second hand market is there, new car buyers will suffer with larger depreciation rates



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,331 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I’d say price followed by range followed by lack of consumer confidence around resale values and large bills if something went wrong in the future - ie the unknowns

    Range aside, you could be describing a modern diesel there.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,613 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    I think the current consumer concerns around FMV and potential large bills are greatly enhanced in their minds right now when referring to EVs-more so than for ICE cars . Yes such concerns are there when buying ICE cars but they’re much smaller than when considering EVs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    No chance this happened, a modern diesel/petrol you don't hear the engine in the majority of cases, its the road noise you hear. Exact same with an electric(I say the majoirty because you can have those stupid exhausts)

    I see this been posted all the time and it turns out to be false in most cases.

    The issue with electric is at low speed, so when I was backing out of a car spot once someone was talking and didn't notice the car but I had stopped already, they walked into the car. Most of the newer electric now have noise at low speed

    What noise would you want on them out of interest? I high pitch beep like they have on trucks when reversing?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    A lot of FUD been thrown around, for some reason on TikTok(probably the algorithm) keeps putting up this garage person who slags off EV non stop. Then every time someone asks him about a high bill repair he shows a hybrid.

    He was the one who claimed he couldn't repair a Nissan Leaf for less than 8k, with another company saying they had the part for 500 euro

    Then he came up with some bullsh*t that his insurance won't cover second hand parts and that he would never repair a combustion car with second hand parts even if high cost.

    I call bulls**t on a lot of it, but then again loads of people lapping it up



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    We all say there's no certainty in the second hand market yet a quick look at asking prices on donedeal of 3 year old EVs (2021) in Limerick

    Audi Etron - 30,900, 39,890,

    Leaf 40 - 20,890

    Leaf 62 - 26,490

    Peugeot e208 - 19,950

    MG ZS - 21,950

    Kia Niro - 29,900

    VW ID4 - 32,000

    Tesla Model 3 - 39450 (2022)

    Tesla Model Y - 45950 (2023)

    The prices aren't auful I'll admit but they're far from the rock bottom bargain basement some make it out to be



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think there's margin to haggle on EV prices. You might knock up to 2k off a few of them. Especially if someone wants back to ICE.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Not a lot of private sales in my list. A good few dealers, which raises the other question, are dealers really turning down EV trade-ins or just looking for a quick buck?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,613 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    I can say to you I avoid that rubbish in fairness - whether current non EV owners who are car buyers lap it up is debatable too - car buyers in general can be a sensible lot- for me though I guess I want a longer range car than many secondhand EVs have that will help me to sell it later - I’m not overly worried about battery failure and a bill for 10k or whatever but it is a small concern - consumer confidence will drive everything so anything that can help that would be good - but if a car fully charged does 200 kms new and now only does 170kms 3-4 years later, that certainly could be an issue for many - the more cars come closer to technology items such as mobile phones or laptops I guess the more they’ll be judged that way



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,613 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Yeah I’m m kindof with you on that- I’ve been keeping an eye on certain models and they’re not “bargain basement” by any means



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,511 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Can't imagine too many experienced EV owners being fazed by range drop of 10-15% considering how it varies so widely normally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    But they don't, mine has over 100k km's on it and same range today as it done the first day I drove it from the forecourt.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,613 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    is that a universal rule for all EVs built in the last 5 years? And is that down to milage or time or driving style or charging process?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    No idea, just talking about personal experience, the car I had before that didn't lose range either and I had for 2 year I think, then my brother had it for 3 I think

    No idea, I just drive the car and charge it :-)

    To update, I don't drive slowly, my wife is a lunatic in it, it does the majority of the driving as kids going to sports/school etc and we don't need the 7 seater for most of that. I charge at home, maybe 10 times over its life at a fast charger, that's about it.

    Things have gone in it, like a wheel bearing this year like any combustion car but nothign major, it gets serviced/check up by VW as per guidelines



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