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2 out of 3 young adults living at home

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Comments

  • #452
    purifol0
    Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭purifol0


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151324#Comment_122151324

    Nope I said "Prices went up and small time landlords increased in number because the
    govt have decided to (obediently) open the borders"

    So increased demand was met with an increase in landlords, both small and large, hence the next part of my sentence

    "and also allow the building of build-to-rent properties by foreign investment companies."

    If those brand spanking new buildings were apartments for sale rent wouldnt be going up, but they're not are they.



  • #453
    Emblematic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151368#Comment_122151368

    I'm not sure how you getting the last part. If properties are being built and put on the rental market, how is this forcing up rents? You said earlier, that this might be because of monopolies or cartels, but where is the evidence of this?



  • #454
    purifol0
    Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭purifol0


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151385#Comment_122151385

    Simply because even though we are at capacity immigration has been allowed to continue, and the new buildings for rent aren't necessarily on the open market, they are rented out to local councils who guarantee their income for the next 25 years. Even HAP itself pushes up rents, as well as special payments to Ukranains (800euro per month towards accomodation)

    As for Cartels/monolpolies well about ten years ago ver large financial investment companies used ICAV used to legally money launder properties purchase profits made in the US to here! Thing is, it also applied to Irish Property, so they bought the place up at recession prices!!!

    You say there is no evidence of this: google Irish Collective Asset-management Vehicle.



  • #455
    Emblematic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151442#Comment_122151442

    I'm not sure you are understanding the question. Nobody is disputing that increased demand due to immigration is driving prices up or that HAP pushes up rents in certain cases.

    The question is why you think increasing supply is pushing up rents. You would agree, no doubt, that the increasing supply of something generally has a downward effect on prices. Maybe not enough to counter other forces, but the general effect is downward.

    I have googled ICAVs. Do you think they hold a monopoly on rented property in Ireland?



  • #456
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151324#Comment_122151324

    The increased prices is pretty simple to answer.

    Institutional investors tend to buy new developments which are not subject to RPZ rent caps as they are first time rentals. Therefore they can set high rental prices, and still get people to rent them. There are enough news articles to support the fact that in a lot of cases LLs are ignoring RPZ caps on legal rent increases and increasing rents to what they see the funds are charging, and hard pressed tenants are paying it.



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  • #457
    Emblematic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151498#Comment_122151498

    But if supply were not created in the non-RPZ areas, rents among the existing units also in the non-RPZ would be pushed even higher as the same number of people seeking to rent would be competing for a smaller number of properties. Therefor, sadly, I don't accept your reasoning.

    The fact is, all new supply will tend to reduce prices or rents in the areas where that new supply is created. In non-RPZ areas, new units built to rent, whether by institutional or amateur landords will have tend to reduce rents or have a moderating effect on rent increases in those areas where they build.

    I just think that institutional investors are likely to provide a better service from the tenant's perspective and should therefore be encouraged.



  • #458
    purifol0
    Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭purifol0


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151495#Comment_122151495

    because this

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151498#Comment_122151498

    Rent can be increased indefinitely in certain areas, hence why RPZ's exist. Demand can be increased indefinitely due to our welfare state policies, even if immigration was halted with immediate effect.

    Adding more supply to a captive market just means more profit.



  • #459
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151513#Comment_122151513

    I can’t copy and paste for some reason but if your google “rent increases Dublin” you will see that new rentals rent rates are rising and due to non compliance in existing rentals, they are also rising above RPZ limits, Demand is still ahead of supply so institutional investors are pushing up rental costs.



  • #460
    Emblematic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151524#Comment_122151524

    They can only be increased by the amount people are prepared to pay.

    Secondly, no one is disputing that rents can be increased due to money being pumped in via social welfare.

    What is being disputed is that increasing supply specifically is a cause of rent increases. I suspect what has happened is that you have heard this repeated and believe it to be the case but now can't back up your belief.



  • #461
    purifol0
    Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭purifol0


    Oh I will end with quite a quirk that is depressingly true. So I have friends in tech and in finance and they all got their orders to go back in to the office despite it absolutely not being necessary. So online you read about middle managers demanding this because they cannot see them working or similar…

    Nope

    Turns out in both cases it was because the company's investors/parent company also own the office, and need it to be rented out. 🤣



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  • #462
    Emblematic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151535#Comment_122151535

    If supply is not being sufficiently met by institutional investors i.e. they should building more, then are you not contradicting yourself if you are also saying that investors building build-to-rent units are driving up rents?



  • #463
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151498#Comment_122151498

    A) This just means not enough are being built

    B) It does not mean that it is causing rents to increase. Those who will pay more for the new developments also would have been outbidding people for less valuable rental accommodation as they had no choice. The demand in that sector will thus decrease.



  • #464
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151553#Comment_122151553

    It really depends on whether funds are continuing to invest at levels they have in the past. In the final 3 months of 2023 there was a sharp drop in foreign investment in the Irish rental market. As prior investments come to the market, rents are rising due to the fact they are first time rentals, but lack of investment in 2023 won’t be felt until sometime in the future when those properties would have been finished and ready to rent. So funds pushed up rent, then turned off the tap, so fewer properties in future, which keeps rents at the levels they set, plus the clockwork-like rent reviews/increases which shareholders demand.

    Edit: it’s so frustrating I can’t link to articles, but if you google “fund investment drop property Ireland” you will find numerous articles which confirm the sharp drop in residential property in Ireland by funds last year. Maybe they think that more investment will actually cause rents to drop on existing investments so are holding firm.



  • #465
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151564#Comment_122151564

    No one disputes that not enough properties are being built, so that statement isn’t quite as intuitive as you thought it was when you typed it.

    Given that central bank data shows there are low levels of BTL mortgages being drawn down, the only group capable of moving the market to the extent reported in Dublin in new lets are fund investors. When the ceiling is raised, those LLs who are non compliant, of which reported data indicate there are a lot, look at what is being charged in the market.



  • #466
    Emblematic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 926 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151611#Comment_122151611

    If a new rental appears in a RPZ at a relatively high price and a tenant is found, then that tenant is no longer competing elsewhere with others for the limited supply available, so overall the average rent will not rise generally.

    You also say somewhere in your post that the fact that developers have stopped building at the rate they used to will keep rents high, which contradicts your other assertion that funds building build-to-rent properties pushes up prices. Which is true?



  • #467
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151648#Comment_122151648

    There is no competition amongst tenants, LL set rents knowing that there will be many applicants.

    . Rising rents in first time lets set the bar for other landlords when they rent/rent review. Given the lack of compliance, a LL can look at a 2.5k apartment and think, that is what I should be charging. It’s not legal, but the data reported indicates rents are rising in existing rentals higher than RPZ legislation should allow.

    There is no contradiction, if fewer properties are built, then funds can set prices higher know there will be fewer properties, and rents can be raised for those available.



  • #468
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151662#Comment_122151662

    That is not the way markets work.

    Yes it is.

    Rent prices are ultimately set at the level that people are able and willing to pay. If those willing and able to pay higher rents are moving into new properties, even if those rents are higher, it alleviates pressure in the existing stock and reduces the rent level (or at least reduces the upwards pressure). This is why arguments against new developments only being for rich people are nonsensical, literally every single bit of housing that is built, from social housing to magnificent penthouse villas reduces rental pressure and lowers rents. You seem to be presuming that people will raise rents cause they see other people charging more, but while the market is not this efficient in reality, they are essentially already charging the most they can get away with.

    Ultimately, whether it is institutional landlords or individuals makes diddly squat difference on rent prices but one offers a far more professional service (on average at least)



  • #469
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151693#Comment_122151693

    Is there a surplus of available unoccupied rentals? It would appear there is still room for further increases.

    If funds stop investing, as data from the third quarter of 2023 show they have, then rents will continue to rise, and new rentals set the bar because they are not restricted by RPZ legislation. Remember, developments which funds provided forward funding for in 2022 may not come to the market until late this year or next year, and those rents will be higher if there is still high demand, which shows no signs of abating.



  • #470
    Greyfox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151135#Comment_122151135

    Is daft.ie still showing you properties from 10 years ago?



  • #471
    Kerry2021
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Kerry2021


    For anyone on this thread that is trying and struggling to get on the property ladder what would be the main problems that ye think are getting in the way of your plans to buy a house?



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  • #472
    Furze99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122153060#Comment_122153060

    Possibly others who buy up property as investments and to amass wealth? Between that and the government actively competing in the housing market to purchase social housing. And of course, an old practice resurfacing of employers need to provide housing for their employees, used to build them like Guinness's, now they buy them.

    What's left is for the young and not so young to scrabble over.



  • #473
    Kerry2021
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Kerry2021


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122153207#Comment_122153207

    I bought my first rental property when I was 23. I am personally of the opinion (I’m not saying I’m correct) that too many people are hung up on wanting to live in a big city where houses are very expensive



  • #474
    Greyfox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122153229#Comment_122153229

    Houses are now very expensive everywhere.



  • #475
    Kerry2021
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Kerry2021


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122153667#Comment_122153667

    Agree 100% with you. A house in an estate near where I live sold for €200,000 about 8 months ago. Another house in the same estate is currently making €270,000 and is tipped to make up to €300,000. Seems like where I live with the last 12 months there’s been hyperinflation in house prices



  • #476
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122153667#Comment_122153667

    And commuting is expensive in money and time.



  • #477
    SharkMX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151498#Comment_122151498

    Plus the cheaper end of the market where landlords are locked into lower rents is emptying out as their best option becomes leaving the business altogether.



  • #478
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    living at home…

    image.png



  • #479
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    another thread falling into the vanilla black hole....maybe this post will let it fall through to the other side.



  • #480
    Furze99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I hear the issue popping up regular now in vox pops for the elections. Think of all the families affected, not just the 20-30 yr olds themselves but their parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents, neighbours who are aware of this.

    I think we'll see a lot of scrabbling and infighting between parties in coming elections as they try to shrug off any responsibility for the situation. And of course inevitably this is tied into the influx of people into the state over the past two years and ongoing.



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  • #481
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    The situation is crazy, and I guess people don't realise until they are close to it.

    We're facing another general election within ten months with the housing crisis actually worse than it was in 2020.

    Fecking cabins are being touted as a genuine part of the solution. https://www.tipperarylive.ie/news/home/1389478/renewed-calls-to-tipperary-council-to-relax-planning-policy-on-log-cabins-and-mobile-homes.html

    I can understand people being very cynical about supports for ayslum seekers if they are working themselves but have to live with their parents in their 30s or 40s.

    The country is fecked, we are working hard, full employment, but quality of life is going way down for thousands of people. Twenty years ago the idea of people working all their lives but unable to rent a fecking house was unthinkable.

    There is a huge shock coming to FF and FG in the general election. People put up with poor health facilities and being sleepwalked into the worst recession in post-war European history, but the centre parties kept a hold of power. I don't think it'll happen again, the public mood is toxic.



  • #482
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,657 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168499#Comment_122168499

    I can understand people being very cynical about supports for ayslum seekers if they are working themselves but have to live with their parents in their 30s or 40s.

    Perhaps, and I certainly understand their ire. But blaming asylum seekers is stupid. It's the government that's at fault for our appalling housing fiasco. They just don't care. They're wedded to markets and if you can't make it in that market, well it's "tough, fuck you".

    People need to wake up to this reality, fast. Constantly voting in parties that haven't given a tinker's cuss about housing the population in decades is pure folly.

    Pointing at immigrants and asylum seekers isn't going to solve the issue.



  • #483
    Francie Barrett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,813 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168499#Comment_122168499

    Social cohesion is breaking down in the country and it's a direct result of the extraordinarily weak leadership that we've seen from this government.

    The people in charge want to appear to be these wonderful and benevolent humanitarians. How could we possibly refuse to grant residency from those people in the world who are looking for a better life? The problem is that they haven't thought ahead in financing the cost or building the required infrastructure. The costs of international protection are spiralling and now ordinary struggling taxpayers who are having to pay for it are furious. How could you blame them?

    The housing problem won't be getting better anytime soon, certainly not for ordinary young people. There's no will in this government nor the more radical opposition left-wing parties to tackle this issue. Migration will continue to go up, demand for social housing will continue to go up, taxpayer costs will continue to go up. At some stage something will break and perhaps then we will see some change.



  • #484
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122170370#Comment_122170370

    The same thinking that got us into this mess isn’t going to solve it.

    The housing crisis isnt going to be solved until the government gets very tough with its budgets & organisations like county council’s get the finger out and start coming up with idea’s.

    How many houses, apartments have been built or how many tradespeople were trained by the policy of Paying HAP & rent allowance to private landlords over the past 15-20 years? Where is the value for money? All pissed down the drain.

    The technology is there, the housing designs are there already, the land is ready and available, they have the engineers, the reports etc to no what they need to build and where it’s needed. Building Housing shouldn’t be costing what it does at the moment.

    They have hired people in jobs as HAP finders, that nearly everybody can do by themselves with a quick look on Daft.ie



  • #485
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168779#Comment_122168779

    The market is not the problem, it is interference in the market via the horrendous planning system that is the problem. A completely free market in construction would be building 2x or 3x as much housing as we do.



  • #486
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,657 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173754#Comment_122173754

    No market is free from interference and it very much becomes a problem when people are priced out of needs like a home. Doubly so when there's no real alternative like a functioning rental system.



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  • #487
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173847#Comment_122173847

    And the reason people are priced out is nothing to do with "the market" it is because of planning interference, which is almost entirely political.

    I don't even support a completely free market, I'm not a weirdo libertarian, but those focusing on the government being "obsessed" with the free market as the reason for the housing problem are completely and utterly incorrect. The problem is the exact opposite.



  • #488
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,657 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173877#Comment_122173877

    When government do nothing to alleviate the problem, they're very much part of it.



  • #489
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173882#Comment_122173882

    I have very clearly expressed they are a huge part of the problem, though at least with the planning bill are making some attempts to correct it. Local government is a bigger issue. But political interference is 100% the problem, not relying on market forces. Market forces have their own issues, but are 100% not at fault for the current problems. The problem is fundamentally Nimbyism and that no councillor has ever lost votes by opposing development.



  • #490
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,657 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173918#Comment_122173918

    So, you agree. Government are part of the problem, and not asylum seekers or immigrants.



  • #491
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173927#Comment_122173927

    I have never once said otherwise.

     They're wedded to markets and if you can't make it in that market, well it's "tough, fuck you".

    This is what I'm arguing is completely wrong. It gets a problem completely backwards.



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  • #492
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,657 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173962#Comment_122173962

    Well, you're free to believe what you wish.



  • #493
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173999#Comment_122173999

    I have the benefit of evidence - the free market wants to build significantly more housing than the governmental (national and local) interference is allowing. More housing means lower housing costs. Unless you think that objections to development will disappear if it is the government building public housing apartment blocks instead of private developments?

    Unfortunately, nothing in the behaviour of any of the alternative parties at local level has suggested that they will be any more amenable to the type of planning reform that will actually allow more housing to be built where it is needed.



  • #494
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,657 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174225#Comment_122174225

    Both FF and FG appear very happy to see modest houses costing upwards of half a million Euro in this country and don't seem interested in trying to remedy that situation. They couldn't care less if people are priced out of that "market" at all and haven't made any efforts to tackle this shameful mess. "Markets" only care about how much it can get in return for its "product" and FFG seem to be quite comfortable with how things are going presently.

    So, yes, they are wedded to the market in that respect and have no inclination at all to try and stabilise it to more sensible degrees.



  • #495
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174348#Comment_122174348

    They cost that much because we don't allow them to build enough. Pure market forces would see more housing built, supply and demand more equalised and prices fall.

    The problem is planning, and local opposition. The majority of people who claim they have an issue with the housing crisis are full of **** and would complain the second a 6 story apartment block is proposed to be built next to them.



  • #496
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,838 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174348#Comment_122174348

    Of course they haven't. It's good politics. Why piss off the older and wealthier demographics you need to vote for you? People like their asset values high and fixing the housing crisis would require a herculean effort, the gratitude for which would go to someone else?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #497
    Furze99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174421#Comment_122174421

    I think you're missing a significant point. It's getting to the stage that the older and wealthier demographics are being affected in the sense that they're fully aware of nieces, nephews and grand children and how they are struggling in this current age. Therein lies the real danger for the government parties, they'll have lost a significant proportion of the young vote and also leaking the older and wealthier demographic vote.



  • #498
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,657 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174397#Comment_122174397

    I know why they cost that much and I know that FFG aren't interested in tackling that. So, they're wedded to the housing market as it stands. They don't seem to be at all concerned that half a mil is the going rate for a three up two down and a whole generation has been priced out of ever owning a home.



  • #499
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174449#Comment_122174449

    And yet…

    They remain a deeply hypocritical section of the population who won't countenance development in their own area because it is "out of scale" and will be full of "transient population". I have some limited sympathy for the government in this respect as people are demanding solutions to a problem that they don't want the actual solutions for. The limited steps the government are taking in the planning reform bill are being vociferously opposed by those who claim they would solve the housing problem 🙄



  • #500
    amacca
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭amacca


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168499#Comment_122168499

    re: your last statement….one would think so but seriously what is the alternative?



  • #501
    The Nal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,096 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168499#Comment_122168499

    437 properties on sale in Co Tipp at the moment. And thats just whats on Daft.

    4 bed gaffs going for 200k. Wish I could've availed of those prices when I was first buying!

    https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/tipperary



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