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Russia-Ukraine War

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,486 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Interesting…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,099 ✭✭✭Rawr


    I lived in China for a spell and learned a good chunk of the lingo. Trust me when I say that what little you saw was, at best, copied from a Western source, and at worst little more than an empty facade.

    In the main cities, and especially the centers of those cities, you’ll encounter shining metropolis’ that look like downtown Tokyo or the like, but go anywhere beyond those areas and you’ll find yourself transported back the guts of 50 - 60 years to what China was like during the hight of the cold war.

    Modern China is efficient in only two ways.

    • In the absolute control of their people
    • And the copying of ideas and technology from other countries.

    The Chinese internet is indeed content-rich…that is until the government arbitrarily chooses to censor something. Then your choices are taken from you. Live TV, like news, simply isn’t a thing there and I sorely missed it too when I was there. They dare not broadcast anything live…everything must be reviewed first…

    Everything in the country works on the principle of “Cai bu dou” which roughly translates to “Meh, i guess it’s alright”. This applies to safety standards, quality in general and even human rights.

    Although today’s China has developed over the years since their 2000s boom, it is still a huge house of cards built upon Western trade. Even with their colonial adventures in Africa, China is extremely dependent on trade with the West to keep ticking over. This is why they pretend to sit on the fence with Russia. They are of course going to try to make a few quick bucks from the desperate Russians (China is ironically by far the most capitalist place I have ever been), but I don’t expect them to join Moscow in some kind of ideological conflict against the West. All they really want, is continued power, money and maybe a bit of clout to go with it. That is the China I remember, and although there were things there that I really loved…they were never lightyears ahead of the West.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,171 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    This is reflected in the people I know who've experience with China, including one who lived there for a few years.

    As for the war; it's all down to economics. Sure China can get cheaper oil, grain and the like from Russia, but its economy is massively dependent on The West©. EG Chinese exports to Russia have gone up since the war, but they're roughly equivalent to China's exports to just Italy and Spain.

    And we can see that in the wider context. Russian media was all gung ho about Putin's visit to Xi and their great relationship, but what actually got signed off on? Vague promises of cooperation, but nothing economically concrete. Crucially China is still dragging her heels over building a Russia-China pipeline that Russia has been publicly pushing for because of the massive loss to those earnings after the EU revenue fell off a cliff. For a start China knows they'll likely have to build it or most of it, because that industry has, or rather had, been built and propped up by western tech and know how. Now Xi's trip to France was poo pooed by the same Russian media, but in just one area alone it looks likely China is going to sign off on buying a shedload of Airbus aircraft to add to the many hundreds of millions they've already spent in the last couple of years(to the chagrin of Boeing. Well if you haven't brought out a truly new airframe in years and the "upgrades" you do make tend to make planes crash, well…).

    China also knows how dependent they are on The West©. Far more than Russia was and is. The Western sanctions are hurting Russia and they will stymie growth in the long term(which is their purpose), but if even half of the same sanctions were applied to China would cause them economic mayhem and we'd really see how "robust" China's economy actually is. Russia is an exporter of energy and food so won't go cold or hungry anytime soon, but China is a massive importer of both… Imho those sanctions had an even bigger mental effect on China and took a helluva lot of the wind out of China's sails regarding Taiwan.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,486 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    That's really fascinating. I downloaded Tik-Tik a few weeks ago. I have yet to see a video on there that is in any way negative about China. Basically any China content appears to fall into one of two buckets:

    1. Westerners in big Chinese cities like Shanghai marveling at how the infrastructure is "light years ahead of the West"
    2. GeoPolitics types talking about how misunderstood China and its foreign policy are and how badly they were treated in the past by the British and the Japanese.

    Naturally I haven't seen anything about:

    • The mass incarceration of the Uyghurs in Xinjiang
    • The Tiananmen square massacre
    • The tens of millions of people who died as a result of Mao's disastrous Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward.
    • Them creating fake islands in the south China sea so as to stick military installations on them and claim other countries territorial waters

    As a result of this one-sided portrayal I'm curious to see how Gen-Z (the generation who predominantly use and get their information solely from Tik-Tok) will go on to view China in the future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Gotta be honest, you probably don't see it because no one wants to see it.

    I don't see too many videos of US war crimes in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,486 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    The algorithm is serving me up plenty of anti-American foreign policy content. Same for British and French colonialism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Mine gives me woodworking reels and boobs.

    I'm not sure what the Chinese propagandists are trying to tell me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Heard on the Radio some MEP candidates (not sure who they were) saying that they were in favour of peace. Ok, but then went on to say that the West's sanctions had no effect on Russia! They have had to have an effect probably more needed too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Sorry, I should have posted a link. Can't find it now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭thomil


    Just on that second talking point you mentioned regarding Geopolitical commentary about how badly China was treated by other countries, that point actually holds quite a lot of water. The "century of humiliations" from the Opium Wars to the CCP victory in mainland China has left deep scars in China's collective psyche, and is still one of the driving forces behind China's foreign policy to this day. The aim of consecutive PRC leaders has been to prevent China from ever being at the whim of foreign powers again. I highly recommend reading Henry Kissinger's book "On China", which goes into some real depth on this topic. I get that he's a divisive character to say the least, but he was directly involved in opening China up, for better or worse, so he has quite a bit of first hand knowledge.

    Now, it's been a while since I last read that book, but one of the points that Kissinger argues is that, despite all the red flags and other communist accoutrements, the PRC's foreign policy is more rooted in old imperial traditions than in the revolutionary fervor of Marx, Lenin or even Mao, and draws heavily from how Imperial China managed the numerous "barbarian" tribes and nations on their borders. This basically consisted of a dual approach of binding the tribes that were closest to China via trade, gifts and other methods and buying off the more distant ones, with a good bit of "divide and conquer" thrown in as well. All of this was based on the principle that the "Middle Kingdom", China, was at the interface of Earth and the heavens, and thus basically the only really legitimate nation on Earth, with lands being more savage the more distant they were. The aim was to ensure a series of loyal neighboring states that could be easily influenced, while keeping the more distant ones placated and the strongest ones off balance. This is an extremely simplified and high-level overview and I once again highly recommend reading On China.

    Viewed through that lens, China's approach makes sense. They've recognized Russia as a potential threat that's far too close for comfort, but rather than directly confronting them, they're effectively ensnaring Russia in a network of trade treaties and partnership that are, in the long run, more beneficial to China whilst at the same time keeping them engaged in a war that weakens that potential threat. Keeping Europe and the United States off-balance is a nice side-effect.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭zv2


    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭zv2


    lol

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,982 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Articles said the sanctions are still in place while ruling is appealed, so hopefully that will have a better outcome. Aven has an EU citizenship (Latvian) acc. to one of those articles, so I suppose that is why he was able to go to CJEU to try and get the sanctions removed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,679 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    I had just finished filling out the forms for Mick and Claire!



  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭Detritus70


    This is complete scutter. Total brain rot.

    Trump got nowhere with Kim Jong Un besides getting a few cheap digs in.

    And remember Trump getting dick whipped by Putin?

    And if you blow the dust of a few more synapses you might remember:

    Russia Secretly Offered Afghan Militants Bounties to Kill U.S. Troops, Intelligence Says. The Trump administration knew that.

    So you can cram your lecture on Biden's foreign security policy.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/us/politics/russia-afghanistan-bounties.html

    Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭zerosquared




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Once upon a time I had NVidia stock. Sold in 2021 I believe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭EltonJohn69


    didn’t they almost go bust when they helped make the SEGA Dreamcast ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭ToweringPerformance




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Li Jianwei is a former PLA soldier and a Chinese mercenary hired by Russia. He does not give away locations, just describes effects of various weapons systems on them.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,877 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    And, what's a summary of what he's saying. Dumping Youtube links is bad form.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭zerosquared


    Beside talking about **** himself there’s that ^

    And we still have posters questioning the daily figures that are above 4 digits for months now



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I thought they mainly had a choice between WeChat or WeChat or WeChat?

    Which WeChat is apparently very comprehensive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭zv2


    Translation: The entire network is littered with this footage of the destruction of the S-400 division in the Donetsk region. The S-400 was hyped by the Kremlin, and it was presented as a weapon capable of shooting down anything and everything. Yesterday or the day before yesterday, Ukraine struck with 5 ballistic missiles #ATACMS.

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,746 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Wonder if true,

    Then again a ceasefire just gives Russia time to rearm.

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,902 ✭✭✭zv2


    Can anyone here help with this?

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭zerosquared


    So to summarise last two weeks on this thread, we went from:

    • every cockroach crawling out of woodwork to proclaim the imminent fall of Kharkiv


    to:

    • More of the black fleet sinking
    • More ammo, command, airports, refineries and AA sites being hit
    • The unstoppable offensive in Kharkiv reversed
    • A rumoured mutiny which led to imprisonment of senior generals in a Stalinist purge, with Shoigu promoted to a window observatory posting
    • Putin letting off ceasefire kites


    Wowe much drama in the never ending Russian circus

    edit; oh nearly forgot the Putin visit to Xi where ended up looking like a cuckoo



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,920 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    So pretty looking.

    There must have been a substantial delivery of ATACMS to Ukraine. There's been some prominent strikes all involving (or claiming) multiple missiles used.

    I really home Ukraine is working on their own homegrown missile system (Hrim-2) like they have with their air and sea drones.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,621 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    That story seems to pop up every few months.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putins-suggestion-ukraine-ceasefire-rejected-by-united-states-sources-say-2024-02-13/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 776 ✭✭✭z80CPU
    Darth Randomer


    @zerosquared Apt description for Putin, a cukoo is a most natural Social Parasite



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭ToweringPerformance


    Hopefully some truth in that. This awful awful war needs to stop.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,920 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    It's all within Putin's power to unilaterally end this war by removing Russian soldiers from Ukrainian land. He chooses not to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,341 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    No, not if it is just a truce for Russia to re-arm and break any agreement when it suits it.

    It needs to stop with Ukraine secure from further invasion, and Russia not rewarded for its illegal, unjustified invasion, war crimes and atrocities. Otherwise, there will be more 'awful awful' war to come. And the sole blame for this 'awful awful' war rests entirely with Putin and Russia.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭zerosquared


    I’m trying to figure what triggered it, is it the potential mutiny


    or this

    Are we allowed to start placing bets on how many Russian aircraft be shotdown in coming Turkey shoot



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭ToweringPerformance




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭SoapMcTavish




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,099 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Given that Putin might be musing a ceasefire on current lines, it might indicate that the Russians are reaching their operational limit. Kharkiv might have been an attempt to deal Ukraine a haymaker blow while they still had the means to do it. But since they haven't reached that objective, Putin may be now realising that if Ukraine can stabilise the front, rearm and push back, that the Russians might not be able to hold them off for too much longer.

    So I think he's hoping to hold onto what he's got. I fully expect Kremlin-influenced posts screaming even more for "peace" in the near future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    It will stop all right as soon as some one 'taps' putin on the shoulder. Once he is gone his replacement will be very keen to quit its invasion of Ukraine.

    Dan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,898 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Sure it must be true - we've been hearing for more than two years that Putin would be quite happy to negotiate a ceasefire … if only Ukraine would accept his terms, completely and without question.

    I don't know why any supposedly reputable news outlets bother reporting this kind of nonsense.

    Meanwhile, on the not-sure-if-reputable network, there's talk of the Russians pulling their aircraft and associated operations out of Dzhankoi for the safety of places more to the east and south. Seemingly the spate of recent "arrivals" across the whole of Crimea, targetting air defence in particular, has persuaded them that keeping planes and pilots in the centre of the peninsula is no longer a good idea. (Sorry, can't provide the link as my FY-Elon workaround is very flaky this week)

    If there's any truth in the Reuters story, maybe, just maybe, Putin has started receiving unvarnished reports of the situation and recognises that he's very close to losing more than he gained with his Feb22 madness, so needs to cash in while he still can.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭zerosquared


    The ease with which almost a billion worth of an S400 defence system got swatted out of existence is something else (The Turks must looking on with amazement at how bad the decision to buy these is now looking in retrospect)

    https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/s/A03NOMh9A8



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭EltonJohn69


    just as Ukraine are about to be able to strike inside russia…..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭Virgil°


    Pretty much this.

    This ceasefire statement is potentially good news. But not for the obvious reasons of Putins statement. Not because there could be a ceasefire on current lines.

    But because of why Putin is saying it. If anyone remembers when we were in the middle of US aid to Ukraine being in doubt. Putin was asked about a ceasefire and his answer was(and I'm paraphrasing here): "Why would we stop now when there's no US aid and we're winning?"

    This is simply the flipside of that coin.

    1. US aid has started to arrive in scale finally and Putins forces are getting their sh*t caved in. They've made almost no meaningful gains in weeks and that's not likely to improve in coming months.
    2. ATACMS are seemingly in plentiful supply judging by Ukraines usage of them and so far Russias air defense appears utterly useless against them.
    3. The US looks poised to throw away, in some form, the restriction on Ukraine targeting Russian soil. At which point I suspect an enormous amount of Russian logistics that are used to exert force across the border are suddenly fair game.
    4. F-16s are apparently on the cusp of arriving.

    This is no time to talk peace. It's time to double down. You want a ceasefire? Out of Ukraine you go. All of it. Anything short of that would be an historic and monumental WW3 inciting mistake. I just hope Western leaders don't relax or pay any heed to this. I really do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    I've worked with several Chinese people abroad, and they were great people to be with, that is until the conversation turned to China, and then the shutters come down! No further discussion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    It does sound like he wants to cash in, the Ukrainians are going to be far better equipped very soon, and the resolve in the west is hardening, in Europe at any rate. The war has been an utter disaster from his point of view, he could easily have been toppled last summer, but if he ends it now he can leave while maintaining power.

    I'm guessing the midget knows now he won't measure up to Peter the Great, an aspiration which in the first place shows how mad he is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,099 ✭✭✭Rawr


    I will echo this too. Regular Chinese people can often be simply fantastic & friendly. I count some really good friends from China. But yea..politics either isn't a thing for many, or if it is they're very much subscribed to Beijing's messaging.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,344 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    The only way for peace with Putin around is deterrence.

    Honestly, if in Feb 2022 the collective West had just said that they would assist Ukraine, this whole war probably wouldn't have ever happened.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Very good video, and at the end, famous last words (possibly literally) "we cannot win this war, the price in human lives is simply too high". I wonder how many countries it can be seein in? Would do wonders for slowing down Putin's foreign and indeed home recruitment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Trust nothing that comes out of either the Kremlin or its boss, Putin. These kinds of "offers" show that he's getting desperate. Talks about his being magnanimously prepared to stop the war if he's allowed to keep his ill-gotten gains is simply rewarding him for his robbery. And, neither will that be the end of it either, because the leopard does not change its spots.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,344 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    Terrible that he mentions soldiers coming from Nepal, Cuba, India and himself from China. Despite facing a brutal death.

    As long as the regular people of Moscow and St.Petersburg aren't impacted by this "special military operation", Putin can continue with it.



This discussion has been closed.
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