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Voting method

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  • 26-05-2024 10:06am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭


    if say you have 10 people on the ballot, and you only want to vote for say 2 people, and you want no one else to get transfers from your vote, does one just put 1 and 2 on the paper and leave everything else blank? Does this ensure no other candidate benefits from your vote?



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭TheSunIsShining


    Yes. But note that if your number 1 and 2 are eliminated in early counts then your vote essentially dies



  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭geographica


    ok, I guess the opposite is, for eg, give 1 to 10 a vote, then one is possibly electing someone they don’t want by default (transferred vote)?



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,268 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    You should vote to ensure your ballot goes as far as possible. Obviously the candidates you detest, leave blank. Otherwise it is a missed opportunity, where other voters who fill the ballot up have a greater say.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    You are correct that no other candidates would benefit from your vote, but it's essentially giving equal preference to all 8 other candidates. If you genuinely have no preference inside that group of 8, stopping after 1 and 2 is a perfectly logical way of voting.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,754 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    To vote against a candidate you leave their box empty and vote for all of the others in order of preference.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭ToweringPerformance


    Never vote down the sheet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,272 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    As others have said there's nothing inherently wrong in stopping at 2 preferences if you dislike all of the others equally. However what you are really ensuring here is that when if comes down to electing those others or not then other voters will have that power and you are choosing to give up yours.

    For that reason, I always rank everyone*. Most of the candidates, I would not like to see elected but there are degrees of dislike within those ranks.

    For what it's worth, if either of your #1 or #2 two people are likely to win a seat then all of this is kind of a moot point. That's because the most likely scenario then is that your ballot will end up in the pile that got them elected and not transfer any further.

    On the other hand if your #1 and #2 are both unlikely to win seats then your ballot will almost certainly transfer to your #3 preference.

    *There is no material difference between not ranking a candidate and ranking them last. I choose to rank them last but that's just a personal styling thing with me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,343 ✭✭✭blackbox


    If you give someone your last preference there is a small chance they will benefit from it. If you don't vote for them they will never get your vote.



  • Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭csirl


    That's not true. If you give someone your last preference you are guaranteeing that they will.never benefit.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,306 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    It depends on what you mean by benefit by your vote…. If you only vote 1 and 2 then you only have a say in the process up until third preferences come into play, which in most case means you have given up any chance influencing the final outcome as your vote died. If you want to try and ensure someone does not get elected, then your objective should be to keep you vote alive and try to push as many votes away from that candidate as you can by voting down the line against that candidate as we used to say.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Roald Dahl


    Is it a certain Dublin MEP who is in danger of losing their seat that you have in mind?

    I am considering similar tactics myself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,447 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    How do you make that out as the import is that a blank or last is the same

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Given the post they were responding to, it was unclear whether the context was voting to N or voting to N-1; those two are functionally identical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭HazeDoll


    If there are five candidates - two good guys, two middling eejits and one terrible psycho - on the ballot, ask yourself what the last guy wants from your vote.

    If you vote 1 and 2 for the good guys, the bad basturd is hoping you don't go any further because he in effect gets the same share of your vote as the share you gave the middling eejits.

    If you vote 1, 2 and 3 for the good guys and the better of the two eejits, you have denied the bad basturd a share of your third preference by giving it to somebody else.

    Vote 1, 2, 3 and 4 and you have pushed the bad guy down even further. It doesn't really matter if you give him your number 5 or not. The others would be deemed elected before the fifth transfer.

    A vote FOR somebody is always a vote AGAINST somebody else. Not voting all the way down means not voting against the bad guys.



  • Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭csirl


    If you leave blanks, its as if you never voted in that round of the election. Putting in the last means that you are there for the duration and every other candidate will have an advantage over your last place. I've always thought of the last place as almost like a minus vote.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,749 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    I agree with those saying vote as far down as you can .

    That person you detest will never get that last preference vote and you have had your say whatever it is over the other candidates.

    I like the thought that my little vote is influencing 3rd , 4th and fifth places in any election .

    For instance if everybody opted out after the first two does that not mean that those you detest have just as much of a chance of getting elected as the ones you don't rate but are not that bad ?

    We are lucky with our system . Use it to the full .



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,238 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I never, ever vote for candidates that I don't want to see elected. Sometimes people will argue this gives them a benefit if they're still in the race. Something to do with distribution of surpluses, eliminated candidates etc. But they ain't getting no votes from here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭HazeDoll


    This depends on how many places need to be filled. If, with a list of 10 candidates, there are three offices to fill, it makes sense to have your say as much as possible. I don't see the point at all in just voting for your two faves if it means you have no input into who gets the third spot.

    People who understand the system vote all the way down. If you get a chance, try to get into the count some time. It really shows you how your vote moves around.

    This is a really quick video (and you can skip the first 40 secs) that shows it simplified.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    The British way of voting seems to be a lot simpler than what we have.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,006 ✭✭✭✭L1011




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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35




  • Registered Users Posts: 69,006 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Its completely non-proportional. A party can be in government on their own, with a huge majority, on 40% of the vote

    You can get elected as the only MP for an area on significantly less than a majority of the vote - Belfast South in 2015 had someone elected on 24.5%.

    Parties can get vote % nationally that would give them ~50 seats in a proportional setup and get one (UKIP, Green) or none (same parties in different elections); and there's the potential outcome this time around of the Lib Dems equalling or outdoing the Tory vote and still having half the seats they do. This limits the potential for different parties to actually get in

    Basically, what you vote for and what you get are only tenuously related.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,639 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    It's not all FPTP in the UK. Scotland uses STV for local elections.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,753 ✭✭✭standardg60


    If someone exceeds the quota how are their excess votes redistributed? Is the entire vote recounted and the excess distributed proportionally based on the % of the next vote, or is it chosen at random which reduces the redistribution to pot luck?



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,006 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    On the first count, the seconds are counted and ballots to match that proportion as closely as possible are transferred. There is no inspection of third plus preferences.

    On further counts, the votes are taken from the last transfer at random. The last transfer in is always bigger than any potential transfer out. It isn't that common for there to be a lot of votes to transfer when someone exceeds the quota after the first count, but it does happen - someone can be very close to the quota and then get a huge transfer from a running mate who wasn't far behind.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,621 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    a constituency which is predominantly right wing could have say three right wing candidates and one left wing candidate, because that constituency is 26% left wing and 74% right wing (i'm clearly picking numbers to suit my argument)

    come election time, the left wing candidate gets 26% of the vote and each of the right wing candidates get 24.something% of the vote. the left wing candidate wins, and thus a candidate who represents a minority of voters in that constituency.

    FPTP fosters a two party system as a result; i'll see if i can find an explainer video (should you wish to watch one)



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,272 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    To add to an earlier post, First Past The Post also ends up in a scenario where the vast majority of races are a foregone conclusion. This is the case in both the USA and the UK, where only a small minority of contests are actually competitive.

    These safe seats only aid in voter cynicism and apathy - "Why should I bother voting? The Labour candidate always win in my constituency". It can also feed extremism (we see that in the USA where the real elections are often the party primaries so often it's the more far-left or far-right candidates who end up getting elected since thjey only need to win over their own party base)

    Our system isn't that complicated for the voter. You just rank your favourites. A child can work it out. The complexity comes in the counting but the average voter doesn't need to worry about that. Needless to say though that that count is both transparent and fair.

    For me nothing shows up the inherent unfairness of FPTP more than the 2015 UK elections where UKIP got 12.6% of the vote but only 0.2% of the seats in the House of Commons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭JVince


    In many cases I'll give #1 to a candidate that has zero chance of election (unless I disagree with their politics)

    Then #2 to who I really prefer.

    Part of it is for fun and part of it is because it's good to have people put their name forward and nice to reward them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,268 ✭✭✭✭zell12




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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,268 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    Me too! I like to think it gives the no-hoper some confidence, that people care he put his name forward. If everyone voted the same way though 😊



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