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Voting method

24567

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,153 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    This

    Was explained to me back in my late teens by a local tallyman but for a good few years after I only voted for who I liked because I thought he surely hadn't a clue and was only trying to influence my vote!

    Maybe he was ;)



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    FPTP leads to stuff like -

    In 2019 a third of UK voters opted for a tactical vote, instead of choosing their preferred party or candidate.

    It took on average 50,835 votes to elect a Labour MP, whilst only 38,264 votes were needed to return a Conservative MP.

    In 2015 UKIP got a single MP from 3,881,099 votes vs the SNP getting 56 MP's from 1,454,436 votes.

    Also in 2015 Alasdair McDonnell was elected on 24.5% of the votes.

    Safe seats with parachute candidates. Not so easy here with multi seat constituencies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,624 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The UK system is dreadful, just dreadful. It's designed to minimise the power and value of the individual vote, maximise the power of the two dominant parties, and marginalise as much as possible all other parties. Basic democratic considerations aside, it makes for very poor accountability. However badly one of the dominant parties or its leaders perform — however incompetent, delusional or corrupt they are — the worst sanction they face is becoming the official opposition, and government-in-waiting, with a virtual guarantee of being returned to power in due course. In more mature democracies failed political movements can in fact disappear, making room for newer alternatives. This is virtually impossible in the UK.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,667 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    In 2015 UKIP got a single MP from 3,881,099 votes vs the SNP getting 56 MP's from 1,454,436 votes.

    UKIP stood in ten times as many seats, so it's not really comparing like with like



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,624 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    UKIP and the SNP aren't like and like, but this just highlights the absurdity of the system. A party with a strong local focus and policies of local interest running candidates in fewer than 1/10th of the constituencies gets more than 50 MPs; a party with a UK-wide focus that campaigns on issues of interest and importance to the whole of the UK and stands in almost every consituency gets well over twice as many votes, but just 1 MP.

    And this isn't entirely down to candidate numbers. In the same election, UK and the Lib Dems ran similar numbers of candidates (624 vs. 631) but in the resulting Parliament Lib Dem voters were more than 10 times better represented than UKIP voters (3.88 milliion votes per UKIP MP; 302,000 votes per Lib Dem MP). Tory voters were 10 times better represented again (34,200 votes per Tory MP). It's absurd.



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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    It is not a question of arguing it is a question of understanding. In a multi seat PR system if enough people follow your strategy then you'll end up with the outcome you did not want. That is why you are advised to vote down the line.

    It is decades ago since I was involved in Irish politics, but back then opposing parties used to try and encourage voters for the opposition to do exactly what you are doing because it benefits them when comes to the fight for the last seat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭StrawbsM


    When does the Number 2’s, 3s, etc of the candidate who is eliminated 1st come into play? And if it’s only a proportional amount, how is the proportion worked out?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,624 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If you give your first preference to a candidate who is eliminated, it comes into play immediately after that candidate has been eliminated — e.g. if your first preferene candidate is eliminated on the third count, then your vote counts for your second preference candidate on the fourth count (assuming, of course, that your second preference candidate hasn't already been elected or eliminated).

    All of the votes for the eliminated candidate will be redistributed to the next effective preference, not just a proportion of them.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,039 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    another thing to bear in mind is that FPTP not only means the popular vote is less likely to be represented by the number of seats ultimately held, it also means that unlike in ireland, you have a single MP in your constituency. so it's not just at a national level you might find an imbalance, it percolates down to the local level too; in ireland if you've an issue locally you are probably more likely to find a TD who is sympathetic to the issue as you've several TDs to approach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,420 ✭✭✭blackbox


    I'm not disagreeing with you, but if it goes to the final count, could your last preference not have an influence?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭StrawbsM


    So you should not only be thinking about who you’re giving your top preferences to but also who the voters whose No1 will probably exit the race early give their 2s, 3s, etc to as they may have the one you don’t want to get elected in that slot?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,785 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    No. They're talking about the difference between voting all the way down the sheet versus voting all the way down bar one. Say it's a 4 seater constituency, and there's only 5 candidates. Voter A fills out their vote with 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Voter B gives vote 1, 2, 3, and 4 in the exact same order, but leaves 5 blank. These two votes are functionally identical. Voter A's paper can never transfer to candidate 5 - either candidate 5 is already elected by the time it gets to the last count, or only one other candidate is remaining, in which case the higher preference will kick in for one of the other candidates.

    So long as you vote the whole way down the rest of the sheet, whether you enter a preference in the last candidate's box makes no difference

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭StrawbsM


    Can I throw up an example for us to play with and how far down the list I should vote?

    12 candidates running for 6 seats

    Chicken Licken Party 1

    Chicken Licken Party 2

    Henny Penny Party 1

    Henny Penny Party 2

    Cocky Locky Party 1

    Cocky Locky Party 2

    Ducky Lucky Party

    Drakey Lackey Party

    No Party 1

    No Party 2

    No Party 3

    No Party 4

    My preference would be 1,2,3 of No Party, Henny Penny Party 1&2 and Chicken Licken Party 1.

    My gut says the result will be Chicken Licken 1, Henny Penny 1, Cocky Locky 1, No Party 1 & 2 and final seat either Ducky Lucky or No Party 3.
    I DO NOT WANT Drakey Lackey Party. Transfer friendly with them would be Cocky Locky Party 1&2 and Ducky Lucky 1.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,391 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Maybe but I ain't giving any vote to certain people and that's that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,785 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    It's not about whether you want to see them elected - it's about whether you want to see them elected more than whoever's left. I don't ever want to see (the Irish equivalent of) the Monster Raving Loony party elected, but if it comes down to a choice betweeen them and a literal fascist like Justin Barrett, I'll take the satirical Monsters every time.

    As soon as you stop voting down the page, you are saying that every candidate remaining is exactly equal to you.

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,039 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Speaking of personal voting methods, I'd often have say two candidates in my head who I'd like to win. Regardless of preference between them, if I think one is more likely to get the seat than the other, I'll sometimes give my number 1 to the one I think is less likely, who might need my number one more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,785 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Order the candidates in your preference 1-12. Vote in that order. That's it.

    Tactical voting basically isn't a thing in PR-STV.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Boardnashea


    I will vote 1, 2, 3 for the people I want elected, and then vote from the bottom up for the one I definitely DON'T want elected (make sure they don't get my vote but my vote will still count) and then fill in the middle ground with those that remain.

    So in the Locals, there will be 12 candidates in my area. I will work from both ends of my preferences so might do something like 1, 2, 12, 11, 3, 4, 10, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭StrawbsM


    If the candidate that I select as No10 gets in on the 5th or 6th count, am I able to say that I didn’t vote for them?




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,785 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    That's a pointless question. What if it does go to the nth count and your vote does end up being counted for them? Are you going to claim you voted for them then?

    The only meaningful statement is that you ranked them 10th out of 12 available options.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Boardnashea




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭StrawbsM


    But I want no part in them getting elected and if they got in on X count based off my No10 preference then I have voted them in.

    This is the part that totally confuses me.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,039 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    if you vote down to no 11 and no 12 and number 11 gets elected, partly with the help of your vote, it'd probably be more accurate to say that your vote helped keep number 12 out, than got number 11 in; because you're stating a preference.

    by that stage it's akin to being asked 'would you prefer the devil or the deep blue sea?'; tough choice, but you get to make the choice rather than have it made for you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,785 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    You voted them in ahead of preference 11 or 12. That's the part you're missing.

    If preference 10 is incompetent, but 11 and 12 are evil, I'd be quite happy to say that I helped vote in incompetence over evil

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭StrawbsM


    EVIL 1 chops off fingers. EVIL 2 chops off toes. I ain’t making a preference on that 😂

    I’d rather give neither a preference. No vote for either of them and there’s more chance they’ll never get elected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,354 ✭✭✭plodder


    It wasn't the worst aspect of them but I remember the experiment with the voting machines, and you couldn't do that with them. They forced you to vote straight down the line starting at 1.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Not true. If it comes to a choice between them, you have decided you have no preference so do not influence that choice but one of them will be elected anyway based on others preferences. Your lack of a vote does not reduce the chance of one of them being elected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Your last point is dead on but not one many people understand. For years, I made sure the SF candidate got my last preference. Leaving it blank would, as you say, have had the exact same effect.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,785 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    EVIL 1 chops off fingers. EVIL 2 chops off toes. I ain’t making a preference on that

    And that's a perfectly acceptable use of PR-STV - if you have no preference on the remaining candidates, you're saying you don't care which one is elected. Just don't complain if the finger-chopping candidate gets in and you then realise you'd much rather lose toes than fingers.

    I’d rather give neither a preference. No vote for either of them and there’s more chance they’ll never get elected.

    That's not correct. There's exactly the same chance they'll get elected (you can't control who else voted for them). All you've ensured is that if it comes down to one or the other, you removed your ability to choose between them.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭ronjo


    I agree in general but I guess the argument on the other side is you dont have one or two individuals holding the balance of power and in same cases effectively holding the country to ransom. (which has happened in the past in Ireland)



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