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Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I get you don't like being challenged.

    Instead of trying to shut things down, why don't you engage in debate. What, looking at the only data we have (polls) makes you think the 'protest vote' (your words) has left SF?

    It simply hasn't. They still have the % of the vote they got at the 2020 GE and more, in their worst poll and 5-6% points more in their best one.





  • Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    If you want to have little pot shots at poster, like you do all the time, off you go…..better things to do with my time that look at 101 posts of nonsense



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Your thoughts Clo, were nonsense. You cannot back them up with anything other than your own bias and dislike.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,990 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    All well and good if you just look at those two datapoints. However if you add in the data inbetween you'll see that the overall trend is down, after a peak after the good GE result.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Still haven't lost the percentage they had at the election.



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  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Wealth tax? So you pay the bank a mortgage? How exactly is it progressive? Most of Europe rents. It's easier to have a property tax out there



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    I think SF have peaked and will possibly decline further. The idiot electorate is now barking up the immigration tree. I'm not saying it's important but it is not the most important thing. Perhaps the third. Housing and health.

    The focus might shift back to housing but if Ukraine loses then immigration could remain a big issue.

    Harris is a way better campaigner than a Leo and will likely stabilise or increase the FG vote.

    We all know that there is no hope of a SF/left coalition holding power. It would be too unstable.

    Thus if FG/FF /greens don't have the numbers next time then it's likely SF will come calling. And if FF or FG don't have a bad election they will seriously consider the offer.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    It's important to note that a large part of the electorate don't make up their minds until an actual election.

    A lot of people toying with voting SF might go back to what they consider a safer harbor politically . Even one they are not that ethuastic about.

    My advice to anyone over 40 is get health insurance. Treat it like car insurance.

    My advice to people under 30 is immigrate and come back in 5 years. Housing should be better by then.

    SF can't do worse on housing but I'd suggest landlords to exit the market before they get into power as they want to screw you.

    As to health I'd doubt they have the stomach to reform it



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,229 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    A political party supported by 40 or so independents who all have the same single policy of reduction in immigration… Might be a bit simple to call them a single party government admittedly.

    It's a tax on income based on the price of an asset. Unless you sell the asset you have to pay the tax with your income.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    40 or so independents😂

    F**k me that would be some mess and probably what Sinn Fein will end up with, last 6 months and kicked to touch

    Why would anyone under 30 immigrate? Ireland has loads of jobs, well paid jobs as well and plenty of people are buying houses.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    More personal attack posts

    😂

    It get funnier by the day, then you claim you want to "debate", hilarious



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Somebody caught out not able to back up their claims is debating incompetently and posting unsubstantiated 'nonsense'.

    Your post is 'nonsense' therefore which is an attack on your post as per the charter.

    P.S. The ninja edit was hilarious, did you realise you were personally attacking someone?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,229 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Maybe 40 was a bit extreme but if SF got 33 seats on 24.5%, and the indies are currently on 19%.

    You might also be correct on your "revolt vote" theory. Thing is, a lot of the SF politicians topped the polls in 2020, if they loose a few votes they might slip to 2nd or 3rd but they'd still be sitting TDs. The upcoming elections will be interesting for sure



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,990 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    No, it's a tax on an asset, a wealth tax and not an income tax. Regardless of if your income is zero or 10 figures, you pay the same tax.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    To respond to the claim of personal attack, saying the online supporters for Sinn Fein are incompetent is not a personal attack. You have claimed multiple times to not be part of it.

    So unless you lied and now are confirming you are part of that organisation?

    Anyway carry on with the 101 posts of nonsense and personal attacks. As I said it is hilarious to watch,



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Which, to be fair, would be one argument that makes it regressive. However, I think claiming a tax on wealth is regressive in just inherently illogical - there is absolutely no reason that income should be treated as a better determinant of "fairness" than wealth.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,229 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    You are correct regardless of your income it's the same figure that you need to pay, also know as a regressive tax

    But I am correct when I say you pay for the tax out of your income!



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,229 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    It's not an argument to be had. Property tax is regressive. Somebody on double or half my income living in my house pays the same property tax as me. A tax not based on income is the exact definition of a regressive tax!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    You'd rather a retired billionaire in a multi-million euro mansion pay nothing and a bunch of 20 year olds scraping together rent in a houseshare pay for his local services instead?

    While I know some people put forth the definition, I reject it. A wealth tax can not be regressive by a sane reading of what it means - a wealth tax does not cause a higher burden on those with less wealth.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,848 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Another bad read.

    You deleted the comment in a reply to me. I asked you ‘did YOU’ realise it was a personal attack.
    What I claimed about myself has nothing to do with what YOU did.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,229 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    You'd rather a retired billionaire in a multi-million euro mansion pay nothing and a bunch of 20 year olds scraping together rent in a houseshare pay for his local services instead?

    No of course not, that's just daft.

    While I know some people put forth the definition, I reject it. A wealth tax can not be regressive by a sane reading of what it means - a wealth tax does not cause a higher burden on those with less wealth.

    It's an exact definition, you can't reject it or not believe in it like it's a religion. Feel free to argue that it's a "good tax" and by all means support the tax and the parties that introduced it but don't be trying to convince people that a millionaire living in a house beside a retired old lady on the state pension paying the same bill amounts to a progressive tax

    Even google disagrees. If you google the first 5 definitions of regressive tax

    A regressive tax is a type of tax that is assessed regardless of income, in which low- and high-income earners pay the same dollar amount. A regressive tax is one that is applied uniformly regardless of income, as opposed to a progressive tax, which is based on income [investopedia]

    A regressive tax is a tax imposed in such a manner that the tax rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases [wikipedia]

    A regressive tax is one where the average tax burden decreases with income. Low-income taxpayers pay a disproportionate share of the tax burden [taxfoundation.org]

    tax that imposes a smaller burden (relative to resources) on those who are wealthier. [britanica]

    A regressive tax may seem to be an equitable form of taxation because everyone, regardless of income level, pays the same fixed amount [IRS]



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    If you buy a property you should be able to afford to live in that property. That's fairly basic

    If you can't afford to live in the then don't buy it and buy a smaller one, LPT is only one part of house ownership, if the house is too big for the person wages then they won't be able to afford to heat it etc

    The LPT as I said already means all those millionaires hiding money have to pay it, which means the people in the area get the benefit of that tax, otherwise those people would pay nothing in Ireland

    It is stupid to remove it, the sort of stupid stuff you see from Sinn Fein



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    A regressive tax is a type of tax that is assessed regardless of income, in which low- and high-income earners pay the same dollar amount. A regressive tax is one that is applied uniformly regardless of income, as opposed to a progressive tax, which is based on income [investopedia]

    A regressive tax is a tax imposed in such a manner that the tax rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases [wikipedia]

    A regressive tax is one where the average tax burden decreases with income. Low-income taxpayers pay a disproportionate share of the tax burden [taxfoundation.org]

    tax that imposes a smaller burden (relative to resources) on those who are wealthier. [britanica]

    A regressive tax may seem to be an equitable form of taxation because everyone, regardless of income level, pays the same fixed amount [IRS]

    The second and fourth of these directly contradict your point, the fifth isn't relevant to wealth taxes as everyone does not pay the same fixed amount, and the third one I would say is a poor definition as low-income taxpayers also, generally, have low wealth absent the very wealthy who often have no, or hidden income.

    So your quick googling has not helped your case that much.

    There is no one set definition, the question at hand is whether you consider something regressive or progressive based on resources (which includes wealth) or merely income. Considering it merely based on income is often largely the same thing, but when it comes to issues such as a wealth tax/property tax it obviously is not a good proxy.

    No of course not, that's just daft.

    It is the definition of progressive taxation that you are putting forth.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,229 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    That's all arguments for having a property tax. Which I don't agree with, but I do accept they are at least true to life.

    It is a regressive tax, however, some on here are trying to argue it isn't. For every taxation there should be income based exemptions. Say for example somebody who bought a modest house for €250k. Their tax bill is €225 (+/- the council loading) per year. Say that person lost their job in the next recession. Their income drops to €0 but their tax bill is still €225

    They could, of course, sell the house, move elsewhere, maybe to somewhere nowhere near employment opportunities or miles away from the childs school and effectively start their lives all over again. That is a solution but I don't think, for society, that it's a good one



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,229 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I think you missed the point above. We aren't talking about wealth taxes, we are talking about LPT and Water charges

    It is the definition of progressive taxation that you are putting forth.

    So a progressive way of taxing that millionaire and those lads in their 20s would be to tax their income, at a %, ie the one who earns more, pays more.

    Should somebody earning €1m living in a mansion worth €3bn by the beach pay more tax than somebody earning the same money in a terraced house in a small town? To me, the answer is no!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    LPT is a form of wealth tax. It's not a great one, but it is one.

    Nonetheless, the tax on the wealth/asset increases as the value of the tax base increases in Ireland, it is by economic definition a progressive system. It is progressive on wealth. Income does not and should not come into the equation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,229 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    If you're going to make that argument, is there any regressive taxes in Ireland by your definition?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It's not "my" definition, it is the same as several of the definitions you posted yourself. How the term is used in a colloquially sense and outside the realm of economists is different of course and there is no fixed definition there though it is often, but wrongly in my view, based purely on income.

    Technically any flat tax is regressive (LPT is not flat).



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,911 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    More nonsense. A tax on an asset is not a tax on income.

    I despair at the lack of basic economic knowledge in public debate.

    The LPT is a progressive tax on wealth. End of.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,911 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    But LPT isn't a tax on income, it is a tax on wealth. Only rich people have wealth, therefore it is a progressive tax.



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