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No conviction for west Cork landlord who took away tenants car, dug a big hole and buried it.

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    #32
    Juran
    Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Juran


    We both lived abroad 2017 to end of 2019 for work. People thought we were mad for not renting our house out during thst period. When you read stories like this, it remind us of why we woukd not even consider it. I have full sympathy for the landlord, though he should have towed the car onto council land and let them chase the owner. Burying is an environmental hazard.

    I have heard stories of people I know who spent a small fortune to get non paying tenents out of their properties, between lost rent and legal fees. Not all landlords are loaded. Many have mortgages on the property eg. If it was their home before they got married and moved in with their partner.



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    #33
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196896#Comment_122196896

    So she didn't bothering paying 2 months rent until she was contacted 3 months later and then decided she could pay Septembers rent when she arrived back from holidays in October?

    Do you think he had a similar arrangement with his mortgage provider?



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    #34
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196699#Comment_122196699

    The district court cannot overrule a RTB determination order, only enforce it. A RTB determination can only be overruled either by appeal to the Tribunal of the RTB, provided that they do so within 10 days. The determination of the Tribunal of the RTB to can in turn be appealed to the High Court within 21 days, but only on a point of law.

    In any case, this was a criminal prosecution not an application for enforcement, which would be a separate matter.

    As far as I can see, the landlord still owes the tennant the amount awarded by the RTB. If it is not being paid, the tenant makes an application to the district court for enforcement.



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    #35
    SharkMX
    Registered Users Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    On a side not to burying a car. Really though the RTB should be bypassed and straight to the courts for any issues between landlord and tenant. The RTB are not fair in any shape or form and the courts would be much better and faster to deal with disputes. Have it on a loser pays the other sides costs basis. Might cost someone a fortune, but at least if someone is in the right they will get a fair shake.

    Now I dont think the landlord should have buried their car if anyone thinks i think that but i would have bought tickets to see that :)



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    #36
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196969#Comment_122196969

    As far as I can see, the landlord still owes the tennant the amount awarded by the RTB. If it is not being paid, the tenant makes an application to the district court for enforcement.

    They did already, the Judge refused to sign the determination order.

    They are appealing to the Circuit Court.



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    #37
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196989#Comment_122196989

    I wonder will the tenants Circuit Court costs be granted against the state? From my reading of the process the District Court has no discretion in enforcement of a RTB determination, it is no more than an administrative process that needs to be followed.

    It would be unfair for the tenant in this case to have to bear the cost of an error and/or omission of a state body or employee.



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    #38
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197062#Comment_122197062

     From my reading of the process the District Court has no discretion in enforcement of a RTB determination

    They changed it a number of years ago to try speed up the whole process.

    AFAIK the RTB bears the costs.

    But to follow on your point if the RTB erred that isn't the fault of the District Court or Circuit Court if they were to refuse to sign it as well.



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    #39
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭howiya


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196943#Comment_122196943

    The landlord has not referred to any issues with his mortgage in his evidence.

    This case has been widely reported on. The article in the OP only the latest one. One of the earlier ones, the tenant gave the daughter responsibility of paying the rent for July & August. She didn't. As soon as the landlord contacted the tenant, this was resolved.

    If the landlord had an issue with the suggestion of paying the September rent at a later date he should have said. Either way at 5 September (date of texts) this payment wasn't late.



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    #40
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Right decision, it didn't merit a conviction.



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    #41
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197085#Comment_122197085

    One of the earlier ones, the tenant gave the daughter responsibility of paying the rent for July & August. She didn't. As soon as the landlord contacted the tenant, this was resolved.

    Well no, I believe he tried to make contact and her phone was switch off, the response only came a couple of days later.

    From his POV he ain't getting paid for June, July or September, quarter of a year, things then escalated.

    The landlord has not referred to any issues with his mortgage in his evidence.

    I didn't suggest he did, I asked you a very specific question.

    Do you think he had a similar arrangement with his mortgage provider?

    The answer is no obviously.

    The Appellant Landlord stated that if the Respondent Tenants had paid rent and kept the
    house tidy “there would have been no problem”. He stated that the dwelling was his home,
    that he had survived illness and a recession and he never missed a mortgage payment. He
    submitted that it took him six years to build the dwelling and it is his pride and joy. He stated
    that the Respondent Tenants wrecked the dwelling



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    #42
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭howiya


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197138#Comment_122197138

    From his POV he ain't getting paid for June, July or September, quarter of a year, things then escalated.

    There was never any arrears for June. September's payment wasn't yet late.

    If things should escalate, there are appropriate means. An eviction notice being the most obvious one.



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    #43
    growleaves
    Registered Users Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭growleaves


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058353692/no-conviction-for-west-cork-landlord-who-took-away-tenants-car-dug-a-big-hole-and-buried-it

    'It's not easy being a landlord and I suppose if they paid the rent on time none of this would have happened.'

    Lol!

    I ask you which one of us wouldn't steal somebody's car and bury it in a big hole in a field when faced with a similar situation?



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    #44
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,978 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196602#Comment_122196602

    Tbf that's what most landlords are doing and that's why rental market supply is so fucked right now.



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    #45
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,648 ✭✭✭Feisar


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196689#Comment_122196689

    So if I park up an leave a car on your property you've no right to get rid of it? Seems odd but the law can be strange at times.

    First they came for the socialists...



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    #46
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197162#Comment_122197162

    Apologies, July, August, September.

    The last payment he got was June 9th, so he text on September 5th and got no reply for a number of days.

    That's the escalation from his POV.

    If things should escalate, there are appropriate means. An eviction notice being the most obvious one.

    How long does it take on average to get an non-paying tenant out of the house?

    Anyway, I'm not condoning what he did. I'm looking at it from both sides and I assume there is more to the story.

    But the facts are, rent was not being paid and was at best erratic.

    That was the catalyst, so whatever the excuses blame has to placed with the tenant.

    As for the mini van, it had negative monetary value. It would have been costly to remove it and dispose of.

    I imagine if he evicted her by going through the hoops she hadn't a notion of moving it and it would still be there in a decade.

    The criminal charges were not brought by loss but malice, the judge was right to leave him without a conviction.

    He awarded her a grand for it, she has done more than well.

    Throwing their stuff into a manky shed was a scum bag thing to and he should be penalised for doing that.

    As for paying to keep her dogs in a doggie hotel, get up the yard with that.

    If you are taking 3-4 month vacations every year, give up your animals.



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    #47
    Juran
    Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Juran


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197184#Comment_122197184

    Yes, I'd have removed it. But I would not bury it. You cant call a scrap yard as they want the logbook. So you're left with little choice. I'd tow it to local authority car park and let them send the owner the bill for them disposing of it.

    I



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    #48
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭howiya


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197226#Comment_122197226

    I also assume there's more to the story. My interest in it is that I don't believe all landlords are bad or all tenants are bad. From the reporting he seems to have been around the place most days and the destroying/withholding of her property seems to be a very emotive response. There's definitely more too it.

    However in this case I do believe this is a bad landlord. He has knowingly providing false or misleading statements or information to the RTB Tribunal re the rent arrears, an offence in itself. Various other instances of him breaking the law. Damage to property, illegal eviction etc.

    As for something being a catalyst, if you tell me to put my hand in the fire and I get burnt, the blame is on me. Similarly the landlord is responsible for his own actions and cannot blame the tenant for his illegal actions.



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    #49
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197327#Comment_122197327

    There is 3 sides to every story. One persons events, the others and then there is the actual truth.

    One thing we know for sure about this saga is 2 Judges have looked at it and 2 Judges have been more than sympathetic to the Land Lord in question. They would be in charge of infinitely more facts than us.

    I think dissolving down instances to Good or Bad voids nuance and is quite remedial.

    Like I said I think reporting the missing van she was quite happy to let rot for years to the Guards in the hope of securing a criminal conviction is a scum bag thing to do, as is throwing their clothes in a manky shed.

    That doesn't mean either person is bad.

    Also there is no evidence in the years they rented the place that he was anything but a good landlord, cutting the grass, doing repairs, etc. In fact there was evidence that they were less than stellar tenants, dogs damaging the property and rent going unpaid, etc. You could equally conclude they were bad tenants.

    But I think neither of them are inherently bad, circumstances got of control.

    Anyway, I think the district court Judge was right not to sign the endorsement, I think this judge was correct in not leaving him with a criminal conviction.

    So it is up to the Circuit Court now, if they refuse to endorse it back to square one.

    At this stage they have all been through the ringer, no one is dead though. Best for both parties to sit down, mediate and come up with something so they can move on with their lives.

    It's just an ongoing negative time sync.



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    #50
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197075#Comment_122197075

    Application for Enforcement of a RTB determination used to be made to the Circuit Court up to 2018 / 2019 after which a change to the law to make enforcement more accessible, it was changed so that applications for enforcement of a RTB determination are now made to the District Court.

    Whether one agrees or not with the RTB determination is moot. There is an appeals process through the Tribunal of the RTB, for a rehearing, and the High Court, on a point of law. Once this process is exhausted the determination is final.

    The District Court (up to 2018 / 2019, the Circuit Court) have a purely administrative role in granting an execution order based on the RTB determination. They have no authority to vary the terms of the RTB determination or refuse an execution order based on a validly issued RTB determination.

    Typically it is up to the person who has obtained the RTB determination to apply for an enforcement order if needed.



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    #51
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197453#Comment_122197453

    What's your point? The order was made in March 2023.



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    #52
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197481#Comment_122197481

    I thought you had said the judge refused to sign the determination order and they were appealing to the Circuit Court?

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196989#Comment_122196989

    Has an execution order been made?



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    #53
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197505#Comment_122197505

    I thought you had said the judge refused to sign the determination order and they were appealing to the Circuit Court?

    Yes. He determined the Tribunal was not conducted fairly.

    Judges are not just rubber stampers, they take their jobs pretty seriously.

    His decision then can be appealed to the Circuit Court which according to the ex tenant has been.



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    #54
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197537#Comment_122197537

    There's an appeals process for RTB determinations. The District Court is not part of that appeals process. If, as it would appear, the District Court has erred in refusing to grant an Enforcement Order, then the ex-tenant in this case should not have to bear the cost of any further action that might be required to have the court perform its function.



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    #55
    SharkMX
    Registered Users Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197327#Comment_122197327

    Agreed. I cant help thinking what someone would have to do to me to make me want to take their car and bury it. And what more they would have to do to me to make me actually do it :)



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    #56
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196598#Comment_122196598

    Not actually what happened, she goes to the US every summer. While on holiday, her daughter was meant to pay and forgot due to a personal tragedy. Once she heard, she paid the two months back rent and continued to pay rent until her daughter came home from college to find the landlord had moved in. Yes, what happened shouldn't have happened but painting her as someone who was avoiding payment and living beyond her means is not accurate. A mistake was made which was rectified once she was aware. He asked for money to pay for furniture repairs to furniture she brought to the house. He claimed she never paid the back rent (to which she provided proof to the RTB she had). Normally I feel bad for landlords but his behaviour was not legal or morally acceptable. Her van went missing (all keys in the house) and the FiAT 500 burned out.



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    #57
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196943#Comment_122196943

    If I had they would have contacted me to see what was going on. I missed a payment once because my wages were delayed. I never noticed until the bank made contact. The money was a few days late in, DD was returned. Once notified I back paid the mortgage, job done. It does happen.



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    #58
    dontmindme
    Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭dontmindme


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197217#Comment_122197217

    It's not 'your' property, you've leased it out to a tenant.



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    #59
    foxsake
    Registered Users Posts: 713 ✭✭✭foxsake


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197692#Comment_122197692

    while your additional information is helpful my overall sentiment remains.

    saying the daughter was supposed to is a cop-out. "forgot" doesn't pay his bills.



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    #60
    Field east
    Registered Users Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭Field east


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122196689#Comment_122196689

    is there not a law that states where eg, a vehicle or other item are on a space eg street, side of a road, public , or private property that they are deemed to have been abandoned If parked there for over 7 years - even though Somebody , in the meantime might claim ownership. IS IT NOT COMMON PRACTICE WITH THE COUNTY COUNCILS’



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    #61
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122197592#Comment_122197592

    On what grounds has the District Court erred?

    The RTB tribunal and subsequent appeal has absolutely nothing to do with the District Court which is separate and independent which it has to be.



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