Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

I try to just read and not comment on this thread, but this IMHO is the nub of it. No American president, no matter what the party, is going to deliberately tank his reelection chances for a few thousand Gazans, its just not going to happen. It might not be right, it might be callous, it might be whatever, but IMO its the reality. Personally I think on a human level Joe is likely appalled at what's going on, or certainly isn't "in favour" of it, but knows he has to suck it up to a degree.

Were Biden to win, I'd say there might be a window of opportunity in his first 3/4 months for him to slightly bring Israel to heal, if he were of a mind to, and depending on the makeup of the new Congress, but once you get within 18 months or so of the mid-terms all bets are off again.

The Biden administration made a huge misjudgement in trusting Israel at the start of their offensive of retribution. They should have made it crystal clear to Netanyahu and the IDF that they would tolerate a certain level of casualties in Gaza and a modest level of damage to civilian infrastructure. That after that, all bets were off and no further support would be given.

Israel instead didn't just take the inch, they've taken the proverbial several hundred miles and utterly discredited & disgraced both themselves and their supporters like Biden and some EU leaders. They've discredited Biden and undermined his election campaign, holed it below the waterline.

A lot of you on here won't want to miss the tribute by the UN General Assembly to the late President Raisi of Iran later today.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think most Americans don't really give a sh1t about Gaza ultimately. Maybe the US govt could have done that, but equally, they're then opening themselves up to the "not supporting Israel enough" accusations in an election year, or even worse, the "backing the terrorists" accusation. Personally I think that would lose them far more votes than their current position will. That's not to say I think they're right, but I just think the realpolitik of the situation has it this way.

If Biden loses in November I doubt it will be because of Gaza, although we'll probably never know for sure.

By any reasonable metric, Israel's claims of 'self-defence' are illegitimate

It was pointed out last year the self defense argument doesn't extend to areas under occupation. It's the same as Russia arguing self defence in Ukraine.

It may settle the legal argument that Gaza was occupied prior to Oct 7th. Lots of legal rulings will need to be made.

Hamas invades..... we'll ignore the fact that prior to Oct 7th Israel was bombing and killing civilians in Gaza. But we're back to the legal arguments, did Hamas invade or if Gaza was under occupation did Hamas attack the forces occupying it.

Is Ukraine acting in self defense by attacking Russian soil? Is Russia entitled to claim self defense when Ukraine attacks Russian soil, despite the fact that Russia is an occupying force in Ukraine.

It's not exactly a similar comparison, but if Israel is going to use the self defense clause in future court cases, you'll be sure those seeking justice for the thousands of children killed in Gaza will be making the case that Gaza was under occupation prior to Oct 7th.

Remember the civilians in Gaza are the victims. Don't go trying to twist this as support for Hamas or trying to get Hamas off etc...

Plenty of victims to go around. Yes, it's legal arguments of course. Another poster asserted it's an 'illegal offensive' but that's a legal ruling, his/hers was emotional.

That’s actually a terrible understanding of how self defense works. It’s not self defense to commit genocide. If they want to claim self defense where is the offensive into Lebanon, Iran and Yemen? What are they stupid?

They're shooting at Lebanon; an offensive into Lebanon might've happened, but hasn't. Might still. Too bad Hamas turned tail and put themselves in with the citizens they might be sworn to protect, but unfortunately for them, they did. Sacrifice Gazans to gain popularity.

any normal country that isn’t morally bankrupt wouldn’t fire into a populated area.

If there was a terrorist hiding in a Tel Aviv shopping centre would the IDF bomb it.

Like, an outdoor rave?

Are Hamas morally bankrupt for firing into a populated area?

What the IDF knew in advance remains to be determined, which is terrible. The Israeli people are protesting this and other failures of the Netanyahu government on a near-daily basis and holding huge protests.