Did Kilkenny (and Limerick) Ruin Hurling?

The Golden Miller · 30-05-2024 11:51pm #1

We used to talk alot of Tyrone ruining football, and often labeling it as puke football. I'd have thought the same could be said of what many label as the greatest hurling team ever, Kilkenny. They had some great traits, walk through walls for the cause, their tenacity, and physicality. Limerick later took this blueprint, and did it bigger.

But surely it's muck to watch? Much of their success was built on winning the scrappy 50/50 game, being more physical and dogmatic, constantly hacking and fouling at the heels and getting away with it. I could never understand commentators banging on about KK's skill, that they've taken the game to a new level. They did in terms of physicality, but skill? They destroyed that side of the game. It got to the point, I'd turn off the TV if they were playing.

How they got away with being lauded as such a great and skillful team I'll never know, as they were the equivalent as to what Tyrone were in the football. And unfortunately, alot of teams tried to follow them playing this game, just to compete. They, and Limerick, tried to win at all costs, but surely its lowest common denominator stuff, in terms of skill and the technical side of the game?

Tipp and Galway, two fluid teams, have one foot in and one foot out, sort of adopting this game. The rest have adopted it bar Cork obviously, the last actual team playing what we once called hurling. Kilkenny and Limerick for the last two decades have had some great qualities, in terms of being winners, but it's been hard to watch them imo. Give me an average Cork team any day, for aesthetics and entertainment in the skill of the game.

callaway92 · 31-05-2024 12:32am

No

Every sport evolves. Sometimes it’s of the opinion it’s for the better, other times old-school fans hate it

Basketball has become a 3-point fest

MMA they’ve realised having a wrestling base is the most essential cog of being a good all-rounder

Your complaint about it being win-at-all-costs… it’s sport, of course that’s what they should do

Soccer has become hugely possession based and the realisation that crosses into the box have evaporated at a high level because it’s such a low percentage scoring chance and the risk/reward isn’t worth it, so you see patience, patience and more patience from top teams when in possession

Rugby has been narrowed down to a tee now at a top level too

It’s life, it’s sport; you have to embrace the changes that teams bring

If you’re happy to believe you’re going to win the majority of 50/50 battles in a match, a LOT of other stuff have to go your way too. Whereas if you play smart, you’re leaving everything in your own hands. I don’t want to harp on but it’s about creating high percentage chances and preventing opposition high percentage chances

hurlaway · 31-05-2024 5:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058353964/did-kilkenny-and-limerick-ruin-hurling

Throwing the ball and overcharging which Cork have been doing for over 20 years are not hurling skills

kowloonkev · 31-05-2024 6:06am

The change to spring championship doesn't help at all.

Tombo2001 · 31-05-2024 7:42am

Probably in the top two or three of football matches I've ever seen was Tyrone Armagh semi final of 2005.

Similarly, most of the best hurling matches Ive seen have involved Kilkenny in the late 2000s & 2010s, Kilkenny and Tipp in particular. And Limerick are arguably a better team than that Kilkenny team.

I dunno - the strategies of play mightnt be to everyones liking, they might negate some of what are considered the primary skills of the game - but you cant deny the greatness of these teams, and as a spectator - the very high level that they play at.

And as for skill, KK scored glorious goals, the likes of Eddie Brennan and Shefflin. Tommy Walsh was an absolute one of a kind.

Insect Overlord · 31-05-2024 8:04am

Cian Lynch is one of the most skilful players we'll ever see, and even though he's often criticized as a pundit, Shane Dowling often had moments of absolute magic when this Limerick squad was just getting started at Senior level. That's two examples to disprove of the point straight away.

Kilteragh · 31-05-2024 8:27am

I'm a Limerick man and had nothing but admiration for the great Kilkenny sides of the 2000s. They were supremely skillful as well as being hard as nails. It doesn't have to be one or the other. They were a machine but to say that it was all about the physicality is way off the mark.

Limerick have taken that to another level. There are many examples of Limerick's skillful play with the 2nd half of last year's All Ireland final being a major case in point. That was just awesome hurling as many Kilkenny fans near me admitted.

hurlaway · 31-05-2024 8:42am

Throwing overcharging and diving are ruining hurling, skills that seem to be natural to cork

keeponhurling · 31-05-2024 8:50am

Many of Limerick's games in recent years have been absolutely brilliant to watch

So no I don't think they ruin hurling.

Tombo2001 · 31-05-2024 9:53am

Anyway, its good to have a Hurling thread that matches the 'why cant people admit football is muck these days' thread.

Its only right that Hurling is included….

Maybe we can set one up for LGFA and Camogie also, and Handball.

PeggyShippen · 31-05-2024 10:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122204986#Comment_122204986

What's 'overcharging'? Do you mean excessive steps..ie over carrying

letsseehere14 · 31-05-2024 10:11am

The only problem with hurling a the minute is the application of the rules by referees.

They have given players and teams an inch and as expected and in fairness demanded of players and teams, they have taken the inch as far as possible. Its not the players fault. The rules are there, just not being applied.

The throw ball, excessive steps and the spare arm tackle are the 3 main issues with hurling and the rules are there to police this. Its just the referees refuse to do it, caving to pressure from where-ever it may be coming from, HQ, managers, players, pundits.

To weak to take a stand.

Ironically for the OP, his beloved Cork are the worst perpetrators of 2 of these three issues and have been so for years. As an example of steps, Patrick Horgan ran about 10 steps with the ball in his hand away from 2 Tipp defenders recently, running in a arch to make space he put the ball over the bar. The 2 Tipp defenders literally couldnt do anything to prevent this as he was running with the ball in his hand. They appealed to the ref, waving their hurleys in the air to get the refs attention to apply the rules and blow for steps but he just like him carry on. Shameful to see.

Corks 3rd I think goal that day contained one of the most blatant throws you will ever see.

But yeah, Cork havent adopted it, right!

mullinr2 · 31-05-2024 10:17am

I knew you would be from Cork. You telling me that JJ Delaney, Tommy Walsh, Richie Power, Richie Hogan, TJ Teid, Henry Shefflin, Eoin Larkin, Cha Fitzpatrick where less skillful than any of the Cork players of the 00s?

mullinr2 · 31-05-2024 10:20am

I don't think Limerick have taken the skill levels up another notch than that Kilkenny team. Based on skill alone that Kilkenny were far superior to Limerick. What Limerick have done is taken the physicality to another level. How many are over 6ft something?

hurlaway · 31-05-2024 10:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122205376#Comment_122205376

I do

hurlaway · 31-05-2024 10:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122205502#Comment_122205502

But thinking about it alot of forwards charge into backs with both arms in the air then hit the ground as soon as contact is made so maybe overcharging is a thing

Buddy Bubs · 31-05-2024 10:53am

I am not from a hurling county although I played it a bit in school, my main sport always has been rugby. That Kilkenny team of the 2000s made me start watching hurling seriously and I still do to this day. I even started going to Croke park to watch hurling matches despite not being involved in the game in any way, nor were my friends.

Hard as nails, serious skill levels. They were awesome.

I would love a modern day rivalry between them and current Limerick squad over a period of 5 and 6 years.

Soon after, the defensive football/basketball game came in and it actively made me stop watching, I only take an interest at the late stages now. Doesnt help that my own county are the single biggest underachievers in the sport of gaelic football over a long timeframe (can you guess where I am from!!)

kowloonkev · 31-05-2024 10:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122205376#Comment_122205376

People don't tend to like dominant teams in any sport, but hurling fans especially love throwing about spurious accusations to explain other county's successes. The bitterness is truly remarkable.

randd1 · 31-05-2024 11:21am

Kilkenny certainly didn't ruin hurling, they dominated it, which probably wasn't appealing to some. Kilkenny dominated because no-one could match their all-round skills, and they had 5/6 all time greats in the squad, back up with 10/11 of the best players of their generation, and kept it going for 15 year on the backs of 3 generations of successful underage teams refreshing it every so often. And they had in Tipperary a truly great opponent as well to test them and occasionally beat them, it was Tipp's best side since the 60's, full of truly great players who had great success too, and their games with Tipperary from 08 to 19 were virtually all classics that you could watch all day.

Limerick are playing at a time when throwing/steps/barging/spare arm tackling and are to the fore, and they are the team that benefit most from it because they're the ones that use it the best, and they're not doing anything anyone else isn't doing (Cork are worse for all them things). Remove the throw, clamp down on the steps, barging and spare arm tackling, Limerick would still dominate because their first touch, stick passing, movement, catching, striking, flick passing and ability to read the game, you know "skills" and "ability", are above everyone else, and are loaded with some of the greatest players to play the game. They are the best hurlers, and the best hurling team of all time.

OP is simply upset over the Cork hurling enigma thread that no-one agrees that Cork hurling a pure form of hurling because it's based on steps and throwing.

If anything, the running/throw/steps/possession game is what led to the hurling becoming a festival of cheating, and that originated in Cork, albeit ironically the all-time great Cork side that it was developed for were too good to need it that often.

Freneys Treasure · 31-05-2024 12:07pm

@The Golden Miller I've asked you this before, without a satisfactory answer, what do you think Cork hurling is known for, not just this year but over the last few decades? What traits of Cork hurling, in your mind, make Cork hurling, hurling as it should be played?

It will interesting to know your opinion on this since the style of hurling that Kilkenny played in the mid 00s onwards, that you claim ruined hurling, was a direct result of counteracting the bastardized hurling-lacrosse possession based hybrid that Cork were playing, which encouraged less use of the hurl, less adherence to the rules around steps and throwing, less adherence to the regulations around bas size and sliotars (e.g. The Rock hiding sliotars up his shorts). Considering that the notion of possession didn't really exist in hurling at the time of the founding of the GAA, it is difficult to see how what I just described could be considered hurling as it should be

When I think of Cork hurling over the last few years I tend to think of the following in no particular order:

running
athletes
steps
throwing
comically oversized and out of regulation bas sizes
lateral passing
brick flicks
uncontested scores
hype
poor defending

entertaining for those in the Marty Morrissey school of hurling where the more scores the better, perhaps

31-05-2024 12:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122206005#Comment_122206005

Great description of Cork hurling traits.

Literally run run run like greyhounds...

Large bottle small glass · 31-05-2024 1:32pm

Its muck to watch at times,but you can't seriously debate the skill level of the best players on Kilkenny and Limerick teams. Everytime I watch modern hurling i wonder is their a new rule book out I haven't seen; from the use of arms, third man tackles, throwing, steps etc.

Tyrone up the ante and changed how football was played but still were a great side; and the 03-08 teams among the best I've seen. Considering they had to peak to beat Armagh among other in Ulster adds to their greatness.

Football has always considered itself sh1t; at 49 I can never remember football was happy about itself. Hurling fans have always been smug as fcuk and this has come as a bit of a shock to them.

Unless they can cap team spending/limit the side of backround team we are never getting back to the Offaly of the 90's or whatever you think was peak hurling in terms of entertainment.

RoscommonHero · 31-05-2024 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122205454#Comment_122205454

wrong, Limerick have physicality and skill and the right mentality. They are basically good at everything. To say on skill alone that Kilkenny were far superior to Limerick is just dumb and one-eyed.

zetecescort · 31-05-2024 8:46pm

Much like the other thread, Cork don't have all the skillful hurlers and Kilkenny or Limerick haven't ruined the game, every team is at it to some degree or other

this is where 20+ years of certain managers, pundits and journalists pleading with refs to let the game flow. Throw in the ball and put away the whistle. Throwing and overcarrying now a problem yet people have have no issue with the pulling and dragging, arms and hurleys around the neck, shoulders to the head etc.

is it ok that rules are ignored once its your team doing the winning?

31-05-2024 9:35pm

Cork managed to ruin Cork hurling for 10 years and unsurprisingly no other county tried to copy their awful hand passing , going nowhere puke effort at hurling. Must be strange for them to find that using the hurley actually works in the game of hurling

Glenomra · 31-05-2024 9:51pm

People said the same in the 90s when Clare emerged but the reality is that Clare revitalised hurling. Kilkenny went a step further and Limerick have brought new levels of skill, power and athleticism to the game. Cork and Tipperary couldn't cope either physically or emotionally with Kilkenny's and now Limerick's dominance. Hurling was never as popular with record attendances in the history of the Munster championship set this year. No longer is the game dependent on Tipperary and Cork for survival though both while suffering now will come to the top again.

31-05-2024 10:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122205454#Comment_122205454

Total nonsense. To be able to play the game Limerick do takes huge skill levels

mullinr2 · 01-06-2024 2:14pm

We'll agree to disagree

callaway92 · 01-06-2024 3:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122210005#Comment_122210005

The denial is farcical

mullinr2 · 01-06-2024 5:33pm

Deniel of what exactly?

riddles · 01-06-2024 5:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122208466#Comment_122208466

it’s over stating it to say Clare revitalised hurling - apart from Jamsie and the Sparrow they were brawn over brain and ironically the beginning of the end of for player like Paul Flynn Johnnie Dooley Jamsie Joe Deane etc whose slight stature was not a disadvantage. Dublin would be in the u20 final tonight if they had ditched a couple of the man mountains.

the recurring fouling is not clamped down on quickly enough. But there are many things wrong with the game at the moment. But it’s unfair to label and players or managers as the root cause.

mullinr2 · 01-06-2024 5:47pm

The competition was a lot stronger when Kilkenny were winning All Irelands.

Tipp, Cork, Waterford, Galway were a lot stronger in that period. Limerick and Clare were not as strong but still had decent teams.

Limerick have won their All Irelands when the big 3 in particular have been so weak.

That cannot be denied

mullinr2 · 01-06-2024 5:47pm

The competition was a lot stronger when Kilkenny were winning All Irelands.

Tipp, Cork, Waterford, Galway were a lot stronger in that period. Limerick and Clare were not as strong but still had decent teams.

Limerick have won their All Irelands when the big 3 in particular have been so weak.

That cannot be denied

threeball · 01-06-2024 9:03pm

It's not teams ruining hurling. It's a lack of implementation of the rules and the fact that marginal reffing calls can decide games due to the ability to score from such distance.

The 2nd issue can be sorted easily by designating technical fouls as indirect frees. The first needs a Directive from croke park to have refs implement the rules. Grabbing the arm, throwing the ball, slapping the hand holding the sliothar, slapping the body and arms of a player you're chasing. All issues that need to be dealt with. Limerick and KK wouldn't be winning as much as they have if these basic fouls were being policed.

Letting the game flow should be up to players, not the ref. You want a fluid game, stop fouling. It's not a refs job to keep the game moving.

01-06-2024 10:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122210602#Comment_122210602

🙄…

Usrwastaken · 02-06-2024 12:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122211321#Comment_122211321

I always thought frees would be a bit better if you had to take em like a sideline. The glaring issue with changing frees like this means you can rip lads down around the 65 and halfway line and theres no risk of a point.

windy shepard henderson · 02-06-2024 1:47am

this thread is a joke surly , this year the munster council announced there biggest attendances ever which its far from ruined

i watched the munster final in 90 back the other day , excellent game the standard that tipp and cork played at back then was top drawer but the players did not have the same level of conditioning asn now , limerick are the closest team in hurling to that level of hurling in terms of first touch and reading of the game , something that has been diluted by sweepers and unorthodox tactics in recent years

threeball · 02-06-2024 7:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122211956#Comment_122211956

No, it would only be for technical fouls like steps, taking the ball to hand 3 times, foul handpass. Frees where you pull a guy or trip etc would be direct.

We have situations now where a guy gets a ball, is immediately surrounded by Three players who all are in contact with him, which itself is a foul, he has no chance to get rid of the ball and ends up with a free against him for overcarrying. Potential game changing decisions in the wrong direction.

Throws would be far more likely called if the free was indirect. Refs are afraid to get it wrong therefore giving a score to the defending team.

Barging is another huge problem in the game. You can't stand your ground anymore. The ball carrier can run headlong into you, get an advantage called, keep pumping his legs for another 8 to 10 steps and eventually gets a shot away or a free in when the free should have went the other way. Defender probably gets booked as well.

threeball · 02-06-2024 8:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122212071#Comment_122212071

They also break 50% of the rules of the game in most passages of play. They're not alone but they are extremely obvious due to their prevalence and also their position in the game. We either have rules or we don't, refs shouldn't be picking and choosing when it implement them. In any other sport (except gaelic football) the rules are enforced 90% plus of the time and most decisions are correct. In both Gaelic games they're ignored ad hoc. It's a very Irish view of rules, we'll have them but we only enforce them the odd time.

Thady Quill · 11-06-2024 10:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122204755#Comment_122204755

Don’t talk to me about Cork overcharging. The price of a Club Orange is €3 in the Pairc. Scandalous.

Thady Quill · 11-06-2024 10:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122205413#Comment_122205413

You’ll be able to name the teams who don’t throw the ball practically every time then, auld stock. This should be fun.

raindodger · 12-06-2024 6:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122248228#Comment_122248228

thats super value for you

Thady Quill · 12-06-2024 8:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122248830#Comment_122248830

Keep it up, increased brand awareness means we can demand more money from the stadium sponsor. 👍

12-06-2024 9:31am

Kilkenny were miles ahead of everyone, I remember after they hammered Waterford in the 2008 final People were saying there going to win 10 in a row. Then On came Tipp.

The same will happen Limerick, they might even do 6 or 7 in a row but they will be caught.
And the day When David slays Goliath makes everything that much more sweeter.

The big difference between Limerick now & Kilkenny then is money.

landofthetree · 12-06-2024 9:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249195#Comment_122249195

Plus the fans. Lots of gloryhunters from Limerick who never went before the success.

yagan · 12-06-2024 9:45am

I think Limerick have simply raised the bar like Kilkenny once did when catching up with Cork for titles.

You could see Clare adapt to the new level in the way they covered eachother in marking, and last week was not the usual walkover that some think. That late rebound off the goalpost would have closed the gap to two points if it was just a little bit more left.

That's the margin closing, but Kilkenny have more to do as they're still wedded to their down the middle for the goal instinct which is less effective against a Limerick that takes every point opportunity from midfield.

12-06-2024 10:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249255#Comment_122249255

It’s a bit like saying Manchester City have raised the bar also, easy do when you’ve unlimited resource’s & can hire the best of the best.

To be fair also Limerick’s success has come at a time when Tipp are gone, Galway are weak, Cork inconsistent & Kilkenny not what they were. Waterford, Wexford & Clare have done nothing either for all their hype.

bucketybuck · 12-06-2024 11:01am

Flicking through channels on Sunday and there was hurling on RTE2. Decided to watch it, watched a Clare man score a free from his own half. Then the goalkeeper hit it out into the half forward, who threw it back to somebody, who in turn also threw it back to a player in his own half behind midfield who just hit it from there over the bar. Then I turned the TV off because who the hell wants to watch that.

Clareman · 12-06-2024 1:15pm

Speculation into legal investigations or cases is against the rules of boards so please don't do it.

Glenomra · 12-06-2024 4:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122249255#Comment_122249255

exactly; hurling like all games is constantly evolving. When Limerick's period of dominance ends other teams using new and refined tactics etc will emerge. What is beyond doubt at least to me is how brilliant this Limerick team have been. Credit where credit is due!

Davys Fits · 12-06-2024 6:57pm

Neither Limerick or Kilkenny are ruining hurling but throw ball is doing its best.

Did Kilkenny (and Limerick) Ruin Hurling?

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