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Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

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    #23672
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Apparently some progress is made on the long awaited crackdown on airbnbs, according to today's Irish Times:

    The plans to limit short-term letting would mean a person could not advertise a property on such platforms without a registration number. The aim of the legislation is to take as many as 12,000 properties out of the short-term letting sector and make them available to people seeking long-term rentals.

    Under the plans, property owners offering accommodation for periods of up to and including 21 nights will need to be registered with Fáilte Ireland. The tourism agency will monitor online platforms to ensure compliance with the obligation for advertised properties to have a valid registration number.

    Fáilte Ireland will have 10 staff monitoring websites for compliance with the registration rules. It will be able to levy a €300 fixed-penalty notice on property owners who advertise their property without a valid registration number.

    This is welcome news, though I'll believe it when I see it. I know there are many here who think airbnb is a nothingburger in grand scheme of housing issues, but since daft is currently listing only 1,756 properties for rent, it seems illogical that 12,000 additional properties would not have some impact on supply.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/06/03/short-term-letting-crackdown-bill-due-before-cabinet-after-concerns-boxed-off

    Post edited by hometruths on


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    #23673
    Villa05
    Registered Users Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭Villa05


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215378#Comment_122215378

    A bit baffling that you need 10 staff to monitor it. Simple IT solution.

    Does property have valid registration registration number

    Does registration number correspond with post code



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    #23674
    PommieBast
    Registered Users Posts: 2,716 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215651#Comment_122215651

    Vaguely remember some claim 5 or so years ago that the likes of AirBNB were being checked out. Think actual problem is council planning departments not enforcing the rules even after an offender has been identified.



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    #23675
    Villa05
    Registered Users Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭Villa05


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215699#Comment_122215699

    We had reports here of council staff and other public sector staff breaching these rules. Looking after there own, I suppose

    Separately the most recent public sector pay deal had assurances built in that AI would Not replace existing jobs. I wonder does extend to a few lines of programming code that eliminates the need to monitor



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    #23676
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215699#Comment_122215699

    There was some talk that to solve this, Revenue would enforce it in future, which likely would have been very effective.

    Sadly I don't think Failte Ireland will have quite the same impact as Revenue!



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    #23677
    Villa05
    Registered Users Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭Villa05


    Another one ex fianna fail now running as independent - Irish times

    Limerick election candidate sought €360,000 in ‘go-away money’, Galway developer claims

    Mr Pat O’Neill, who is from Clonmacken in Caherdavin, was a Fianna Fáil candidate in the 2019 local elections in North Limerick but left the party this year. He is now running as an Independent candidate in the June 7th elections.



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    #23678
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,447 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215792#Comment_122215792

    It doesn’t say where the fines go, but if BF get to retain it, they may be far more motivated than any other department to gather fines.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215699#Comment_122215699

    The problem wasn’t in the identification of the offender, it was catching them in the act. Under current legislation the LA have to catch the guest in situ and confirm the property owner is the Host. LAs do not have the personnel not funding to do this as outlined by DCC a few yours ago.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215766#Comment_122215766

    What reports are you referring to?



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    #23679
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122217578#Comment_122217578

    It doesn’t say where the fines go, but if BF get to retain it, they may be far more motivated than any other department to gather fines.

    Good point. Hadn't considered that. Though I do wonder if airbnbs are considered a help or a hindrance from BF's point of view.



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    #23680
    PommieBast
    Registered Users Posts: 2,716 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    @Dav010

    The problem wasn’t in the identification of the offender, it was
    catching them in the act. Under current legislation the LA have to catch
    the guest in situ and confirm the property owner is the Host. LAs do
    not have the personnel not funding to do this as outlined by DCC a few
    yours ago.

    Ah yes. Does beg the question of why legislation cannot be changed so that such legwork is not required. Worst-case use money laundering laws to find out who the host is.



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    #23681
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,447 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122219174#Comment_122219174

    Revenue already know who the host is with Airbnb as all income earned through the site is automatically forwarded to Revenue, but the Host may be someone renting the property rather than the owner. Leg work is required because advertising was not prohibited, whereas short letting is, ergo, they have to prove someone stayed in the property.

    Post edited by Dav010 on


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    #23682
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122219283#Comment_122219283

    Unless airbnb hosts are earning income purely from people viewing ads, you'd have thought with details of income earned through the site, Revenue have some pretty strong proof that somebody stayed in the property.



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    #23683
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,447 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122219657#Comment_122219657

    Again, advertising on a site without planning was not prohibited, and a not an indicator of ownership. The current legislation punishes property owners, but the Host may be renting the property, so LAs not only have to catch the tenant there, they have to confirm that it was the owner who short let the property.



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    #23684
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122219709#Comment_122219709

    So our government produced legislation, intended to improve rental supply for long term tenants, and that legislation decreed that it was illegal to buy a property and use it for short term lets, but not illegal to rent a property and use it for short term lets.

    No wonder we have a few issues with housing.



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    #23685
    DataDude
    Registered Users Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭DataDude


    https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/06/05/mary-lou-mcdonald-says-300000-price-tag-refers-to-affordable-homes-not-average-dublin-houses/

    €300k average house prices in Dublin promise was click bait nonsense? I’m stunned….



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    #23686
    tigger123
    Registered Users Posts: 4,475 ✭✭✭tigger123


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221349#Comment_122221349

    Regardless of where your political leanings are, it was a very definitive position to take initially, and then its quite the u-turn.

    I heard the interview with Pat Leahy where she said it initially; she was very clear at that time what her position was. That in of itself was surpirsing and clearly signalled that she was chasing the votes of young (and not so young) renters. And also essentially ceding most home owning votes to the FFG.



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    #23687
    DataDude
    Registered Users Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭DataDude


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221745#Comment_122221745

    Textbook case of trying to pretend government is a series ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ decisions that can keep everyone happy if you choose ‘correctly’ rather than the reality of it being a series of compromises. Prioritising one group over another etc.

    When pushed on the downsides of your policies you either have to directly contradict yourself (eg 300k houses) or live in fantasy land - we wouldn’t change immigration or ask communities permission…we’d just talk to them and ‘explain’ it to them and they’ll be fine with it (I’m not joking, this was her view).

    I wish Claire Byrne pushed her on the health system impacts of their tax policies reducing the net pay of every consultant doctor in the country by c.10% when we already can’t fill posts.

    I am kinda suprised how quickly they came off their cheap housing schtick though given how much support it brought them. If she was slightly better prepared she could have danced around it.

    Complaining is easy. Fixing is hard.



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    #23688
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Mary Lou had the easiest job in the world.

    Just keep quiet, maintain the status quo until the election and let FFG continue to shoot themselves in the foot.

    How it's all fallen apart in the past 4 months. Seems to be no consistency in their message, swinging one way and another over Palestine, immigration, economy, housing etc etc.



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    #23689
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222458#Comment_122222458

    This is a bit beside the matter at hand, and I'm not having a go at you, but can we please stop referring to politicians and senior civil servants by their given names? These people are not our friends, quite the opposite in fact.

    Post edited by RichardAnd on


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    #23690
    tigger123
    Registered Users Posts: 4,475 ✭✭✭tigger123


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222434#Comment_122222434

    No matter who's in Government, if the opposition was in power we'd live in a utopian society.

    The perspective from the opposition re migration really grinds my gears in particular. The basic position is that the Government nend to do whatever they're not doing, but they can't, becuase they're idiots.



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    #23691
    arctictree
    Registered Users Posts: 4,318 ✭✭✭arctictree


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122219940#Comment_122219940

    The new Bord Failte registration will not make any difference. AirBnb owners will just register with BF, get a number and continue short term letting. You just have to tick a box to say that you have planning, you dont have to prove it.

    Also, Revenues only remit is to make sure that the tax is paid. Many AirBnb owners are tax compliant but not planning compliant.



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    #23692
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,482 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Looks like an ECB rate cut is all but guaranteed to be announced tomorrow.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/05/european-central-bank-set-to-cut-rates-for-the-first-time-since-2019.html



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    #23693
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223245#Comment_122223245

    Unsurprising. More funny-money on the way!



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    #23694
    SpoonyMcSpoon
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭SpoonyMcSpoon


    They only need to cut rates and aim to keep inflation at 2%; there was no significant economic crash which warrants rates to now be cut dramatically so we won’t see many rate cuts. The funny money that has been hoovered up by the property market since the start of COVID through to early 2023 is probably still on fixed rates or only recently coming off fixed rates; the hundreds of euro extra payments each month are therefore only starting to materialise now. That will be a stress test for the property market over the rest of this year and into next year - to see if the higher rates actually managed to cool the huge price increases we keep seeing. €3/4/500 extra per month since 2020-2022 isn’t going to break the bank for most of those who were able to obtain significant mortgages where they will see these types of monthly repayment increases is my view; probably just wait an extra year to get the newer car as a sacrifice. Therefore, there is road to run in the property market in Ireland as rate cuts won’t do much to us compared to what they may do in other countries with traditionally much lower mortgage rates and where their economies have actually slowed much more than ours the last few years. Probably the election in Ireland coming later this year or early next year will be the next big market event to watch, especially if we see no majority government readily formed thereby creating a power vacuum with no government for a while will lead to less supply and more demand so higher prices. It is quite a bleak outlook for the market when we need to see it cool a bit so more supply comes on stream for people to move around more; upsizing, downsizing etc.



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    #23695
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223118#Comment_122223118

    Presumably BF's ten strong enforcement staff might think to ask for evidence of planning permission before granting the number. It's not a exactly difficult thing to prove.

    Whether they do or not is another question. The point is ensuring compliance with the law that short term lets require planning permission to operate is not a particularly hard thing to enforce assuming there is a willingness to enforce it.



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    #23696
    arctictree
    Registered Users Posts: 4,318 ✭✭✭arctictree


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225252#Comment_122225252

    Well that's exactly it. I remember when the legislation was announced, there was a statement that owners will not be required to provide proof of PP to register. Ie self regulation!



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    #23697
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,469 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225252#Comment_122225252

    There are exemptions to PP not in the case of second properties but in the case of PPR. However the EU questioned the legislation especially for rentals in holiday areas. So if you had a long term holiday let in a tourism area it probably likely you will get PP I'df you do not already have the house registered as a holiday home.

    There is supposed to be around 12k properties nationwide. I stayed in an aerBnB lately, owner(50% with a brother) is living in for want of a better word a basement flat. This is a newly done up property in a tourism area 3X2 rooms with a bathroom and cooking facilities in each mini suite. As he lives there it he is exempt from BF and planning is only required if they exceed 90 days which they will. Will planning be refused, as they have only recently done up the house planning may already be in place

    There is a lot of similar aerBnB's nationwide. Grannyflats, old farm houses in farm yards, apartments by cohabiting couple where one party still has the property registered as a PPR.

    IMO this is no magic bullet. A lot of renting nay move off line onto word of mouth or use multiple rental sites. Register with BF use foreign as well as Irish rental site. Leave your cards available for direct contact.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #23698
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225414#Comment_122225414

    No doubt airbnb etc is valuable for tourism in popular tourist areas. Which is exactly why the planning requirement only applies in RPZs.

    As I understand/understood the legislation, it would be well nigh impossible for your average airbnb host to get planning permission in an RPZ.



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    #23699
    arctictree
    Registered Users Posts: 4,318 ✭✭✭arctictree


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225676#Comment_122225676

    To register with BF, you will not need to prove you have planning, you just have to tick a box. They say that they have no role in planning and this is totally up to the applicant. See

    https://www.failteireland.ie/supports/registration-and-grading/short-term-tourist-letting-register/faqs.aspx

    I doubt this is going to deter any current AirBnB owners that dont have planning.



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    #23700
    Villa05
    Registered Users Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭Villa05


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225676#Comment_122225676

    Kerry was listed as the third most unaffordable region in the country last week.

    A sensible approach to short term lets would probably fix that quickly in a county where they campaigned for ghost estates to be demolished to protect the holiday home sector at the time.



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    #23701
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226004#Comment_122226004

    Pretty astonishing really.



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