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Non-Irish-Eligible/Qualified quotas for the Irish provinces

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Again quantity does not improve quality and in fact has the opposite affect

    It also means the provinces will end up signing players just to fill up slots, then play those players because they are the NIQ player infront of Irish players. All of this was done many years ago and hence why the IRFU changed it many years ago

    Which since then has meant Ireland has progressed and won more 6 natiosn etc than they ever have.

    In terms of the provinces, if we take Ulster for instance, has any of the huge money signing they have made in the last 10 years made a huge difference? the odd one like Pinear was a success but the majority haven't. The big wins for Ulster have been home grown players.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I honestly don't think that's how development works at leinster and all the provinces any more. They aren't trying to identify current weaknesses and deciding on academy or NTS inclusion based on that.

    It definitely could affect older players and also post academy lower rated players, third year academy players. Which might not he the worst thing.

    At the end of the day though, with 5 NIQs you still need to produce alot of your own players to win trophies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    If the number of NIQ players doesn't make any difference to the quality of the teams, why are all but one of our european cup wins in a high NIQ era, and all of the non leinster ones?

    Again, whether that's good for irish rugby is a whole separate argument.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Multiple reasons why, Leinster just happened to win 5 finals in a row and have lost 4 in a row since. I would be asking why Leinster are the only team which decided to try win the Challange cup while the rest of the Irish sides seem to turn their nose up at it?

    In terms of the win's it was never a high NIQ team, normally it was one big NIQ player which was the difference, not 5.

    As the model should be, high quality, not high quantity.

    As I said, a lot of big signing made over the years in Ulster, a lot of success stories? not really



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    To be fair, Munster had 2 starters and 1 bench NIQ in 06 and 3+1 in 08 (though 3 in the backline and the signs of poor academy work were starting to show I think).

    We are not even talking about massively high levels.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    Yea, the 23s in finals were not always that high. But the squads usually had more.

    I think there is something to it just in terms of being free to add that something 'different' that can really help.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    Yea, leinster just lost 4 in a row, and that also includes two very important project players that can't be replaced with project players. Putting even more pressure on their academy to win. Which they can't currently do.

    Correllation does not equal causation but its at least an interesting place to start. We certainly were more successful in europe with higher NIQ numbers in squads.





  • Saying Leinster "can't" currently win, while being factually accurate, isn't a realistic reflection though.

    With the exception of the Saracens final (and even then if Ringrose throws the pass before half time, or Luke McGrath puts the ball in the stand Leinster are well in the mix), Leinster absolutely could have and arguably should have won each of the last three. All were incredibly tight games where marginal refereeing decisions or just a couple of moments of extreme bad luck proved decisive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Why can't they be replaced with project players or with academy players?

    Your answer to everything seems to be throw hands up in air at any little inconvenience and say it can't be achieved.

    As I already said, the number of NIQ during those wins was minimal with normally one star player in the team.

    The number of NIQ over the year pushed into Ulster at huge money has given what success?

    More NIQ's is not giving Ulster more success, in reality the opposite.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    Fair enough. Leinster can win but they don't. Possibly one or two more NIQ would help.

    Unrelated but the more i think about this, the high NIQ era was just replaced by the project player era.

    Going to 3 NIQs, and no outside source at all otherwise for players when the current project players age out is going to be tough.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    They could be replaced by project players but the irfu doesn't seem interested in a 5 year project player.

    The amount of academy production with zero project players and 3 NIQs would be really really high.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Yes, but again, Munster haven't developed anyone who was a regular ireland starter, just one was largely a replacement

    They have 7 players widely available injury permitting) all year round whereas Leinster don't. So who needs the NIQ to cover and who doesn't?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Again you are just ignoring what I am saying, maybe that might work in other groups.

    Who said the IRFU are not interested in project players? I never seen them confirm that. They do seems to be looking at players like Hansen etc so Im sure project players will come up but will need backing of the provinces.

    As I already posted multiple times, NIQ has not helped Ulster at all, if anything the opposite with wasted money over the years with little to no return. The best return has come via the academy. Plus Ulster had the "star" names coming in and not many have been a success

    So the whole premise of more NIQ will automatically mean success is not correct, not based on the years of NIQ into Ulster.

    In reality the big success at Connacht was based on home grown players with 1-2 star quality project/NIQ. Not loads of NIQ.

    So the evidence when you review it, says that more NIQ does nto equal success.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Leinster need the tighthead cover more.

    Munster need the loosehead quality more.

    They're not mutually exclusive. And national selection shouldn't be the only criteria for NIQ recruitment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    Because we stopped signing them after the 5 year rule came in. So they don't 'seem' interested in them. Do i need a quote from the irfu?

    Ulster last won a european cup with a ton of NIQs in the squad.

    I have to say your lines of reasoning are pretty questionable here.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    https://rugbyunion.fandom.com/wiki/Ulster_Rugby/1998-1999 n

    Who's NIQ out of that list? Probably Clinton van Rensburg (who I'd never heard of), but any others?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Pienaar and Muller helped Ulster massively.

    Nothing automatically means success and no one reasonable thinks that. The question is whether the rules, as currently enforced, are overly hamstringing the provinces. I would say they are to a degree that is a bit of a problem, while not saying it is the largest issue they face.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Ulster's final 23 was entirely IQ. Though 98/99 is deeply meaningless to today's game.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Ulster had 1 NIQ ( or possibly 2 if Mark Blair was NIQ) in 1999. The rest were all home grown apart from Simon Mason.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Simon Mason was IQ though (and played for Ireland), even if not home grown.

    There has never been a huge number of NIQs, but the general impression I get is they have become more strict on the position restrictions. I don't really understand blocking Munster signing a front row.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    Oh my bad, from memory i thought there were 7/8 in that squad total.

    I guess two NIQ low teams have won the european cup then, not one.

    I guess that was the onset of professionalism but it does make for a weaker argument for sure.

    I still think 3 NIQ and no project players would be tough but there is precedent…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,328 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I guess two NIQ low teams have won the european cup then, not one.

    Munster in 2006 had one NIQ in the starting team, and Trevor Halstead was a decent player but no more. You’re way off here tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Everyone else has cleared up the NIQ statement

    It is harder to identify players who are willing to sign off on 5 years of their career in the hope they will get an international spot, especially when you can earn more money in France/Japan immediately

    Nobody in the IRFU or provinces have ever mentioned the program has been shut down and as we have seen recently with the signing of Morgan they are engaged overseas to identify players. Lowe was fairly vocal when he signed about the issues and he was 25, Ireland would need to identify players younger now and move over. A lot harder I expect

    My lines of reasoning are "pretty questionable" 😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    Yea, its harder to project someone 5 years out so they stopped doing it. Correct.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    Actually, yea the first three leinster titles are the only high NIQ level squads really.

    Ulster and Munster were more homegrown squads. That's interesting. For some reason, i thought if leinster needed niqs, they probably did too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Leinster in 2009 had 4 NIQ's(Nacewa, Withtaker, Wright, Elsom)

    Leinster team in 2011 had 2 NIQ's(Hines, Nacewa ) and two on bench(Wright and HVDM), Straus was a project player

    Leinster team in 2012 had 2 NIQ's (Nacewa and Thorn) and one on bench(HVDM)

    Leinster team in 2018 had 2 NIQ's (Nacewa and Fardy)

    "high NIQ"? 🤔

    They are all similar to the current options available to the provinces and your claim of Irish teams been more successful with more NIQ's is not really based in fact now it is?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    You are saying those are the amounts they had in their squads?

    i think those numbers are incorrect.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    No in the match day

    You are grasping at straws now to back up incorrect claims :-) it's fun to watch but pointless going on anymore

    You made the call that the teams had been more successful with loads of NIQ, this has turned out to be incorrect, the statement about Ulster was the funniest I give you that

    The plan was always to have a large contingent of Irish players with a few top quality NIQ



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    An actual need versus a luxury need.

    Leinster need a player so they can meet the rest demands for Furlong without compromising on competitiveness.

    National selection will be a big part of the process given its the cash cow that funds the game here.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'm amazed you see it as a "luxury" given how much you've criticised Munster's front row over the years on here….



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I proposed 5 total in each squad. With no restrictions.

    I'd totally settle for a return to 4 or so in match day squad and a couple more in overall squad like those first three leinster titles. That sounds great. I totally agree with you there.

    I'm happy to find the middle ground. I agree the current goal of 3 total is too restrictive.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'm ok with 3, but when it is combined with limitiations around position, I think it's too restrictive. Particularly when it's an area where the incumbent IQ players are so far down the national depth chart.

    Munster's front-row has been an area of weakness for a fair while now, and there's rumours of a lot of targets being blocked over the years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I think 3 and absolutely no restrictions would be fine but i still think 3 or even 4 will be tough without project players.

    The munster front row thing is weird, especially as you got some good things under JvG in terms of power in front five power.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    You propose 5 and then a post later you propose 3 😂





  • There have to be restrictions - they simply cannot allow all four provinces to go out and have NIQ THPs for example.

    If you accept there are going to be restrictions, then we're largely at where we are today.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Of course we have to have restrictions, the provinces have to be guarded against themselves as well.

    So everyone seems to be in agreement to have 3, which is what is currently available

    I doubt anyone actually thinks the IRFU will turn around and say no restrictions because that would be silly to do, so that is the current model we already have in place

    Maybe the project player is something the provinces should look at options again along with players like Morgan who are IQ

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on




  • I'd say they are already scouring the globe for IQ players, and most likely have identified players all over the place who would fit in that bracket. They still have to be good enough to bother with, and that's a big distinction of Irish rugby now versus the 2000's.

    Back then - odds were your average Aussie or Kiwi was a big step up on your average Irish player, but that absolutely isn't the case anymore. We produce excellent rugby players in this country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Exactly, which goes back to the quantity over quality for NIQ. Ireland is producing some of the best players in the World and to sign players of equivalent or better from overseas you need to spend serious money. Money which none of the provinces are able to generate themselves so then the IRFU have to fund, which in turn makes the national team weaker.

    Then when you are trying to sign these players they have top clubs from France etc with a lot more money available to them, should the IRFU get into more and more battles with foreign clubs to sign NIQ? or should they use that money to develop more player in Ireland?

    I know the direction I want IRFU going.

    Plus the whole premise of these threads is more NIQ = more success. I think we can put that one to bed and I have said from the start, signing a NIQ doesn't automatically mean they will be a success. A lot of them have been good, a lot of them have not worked out for numerous different reasons,.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof




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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    You do not need serious money to find better props than Munster have because their props are not very good.

    Every squad outside Leinster has glaring weaknesses that would quite clearly be helped with NIQs.





  • I'm not on the same page here with all of that - the whole thing around the IRFU fund the provinces thing is a circular and quasi non-sensical argument at times to me. Yeah, grand the money comes from the international matches and TV contracts, but the players are produced in the provinces, and without them there isn't a buzz or an interest or an ability to compete at an international level.

    I think rugby really took off here post professionalism and captured the public at large's imagination to a large degree largely due to the provinces and the drama and romance of their successes in Europe.

    Financially - the IRFU are very well managed, and I think because of that we do have the ability to selectively go out and sign good quality NIQs which predominantly massively add value to the game here.

    Beyond just the excitement factor (which absolutely is pertinent), there is also enormous value in bringing in culturally different guys with a different mindset and ethos. This is most especially relevant in a place like Leinster of recent years where there is a real fear (to me) of the place becoming mono-cultural (with so many guys coming through a handful of schools). I remember talking to guys on the Leinster squad back in 2011 & 2012 who just raved about the impact someone like Brad Thorn had in even his short time there at the club. That sort of stuff is hugely valuable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,824 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    for next season,

    Leinster will have Snyman and Barrett, and possibly a ThP incoming.

    Munster will have Kleyn, Nankivell and Abrahams,

    Ulster will have Kok,

    Connacht will have Porch, Hurley-Langton and Cordero.

    Post edited by Jump_In_Jack on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I'm open to ideas. Yours is my favourite so far.

    Like you I like the 4 or so in match day squad and a couple more in overall squad that helped leinster win their first three stars. I just always assumed ulster and munster needed the same help. Its good to find common ground.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,551 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I guess i just don't think that would actually happen. Its unlikely everyone would need the same position at same time.

    Would you say two max per position on island?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • I’d probably just keep doing it on a case by case basis. There are times when you’d have no issue with that, but it would depend on the position and what the current pecking order looked like for Ireland at that time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,824 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Just to compare,
    Leinster will be getting two world class players, but both are surplus to requirement, and may not start for big games.
    However, injuries are inevitable, and having quality impact off the bench could be a difference-maker.
    Also both signings are reportedly only for next season, and appearances are going to be managed, Barrett only joining for 6 months, Snyman won’t start ahead of McCarthy in big games.
    The tight-head prop situation is interesting, there is a gap being left by Ala’alatoa, but after two years he should be being replaced by a Leinster-produced player. Clarkson is the obvious replacement, and then the question is how to fill the gap behind Clarkson. One way would be to consider promoting McGuire from the academy a year early, and/or use Healy and McCarthy to cover both sides. With Porter, Milne and Boyle covering loose-head prop there should be plenty of cover for both positions.

    So if Leinster just stick to two World-Class signings, one forward and one back, that might be a good template for each season, though getting players on 1-season contracts may be difficult.

    Munster are retaining Kleyn, and Nankivell has one more year on his contract, and Abrahams is joining on a 2-year contract.
    Retaining Kleyn was vitally important as Edogbo is out for at least half of next season, and Snyman is leaving.
    Nankivell is turning into an integral part of the centre-partnership, Frisch is leaving and being replaced by O’Brien, with Scannell out on a long-term ankle injury now.
    Abrahams is joining as a back three just as Zebo is retiring, and Nash has been given an upgraded and extended contract so would expect him to be in Irish squads next season.

    So, Munster will have one forward, and two backs, none would be classed as world-class, and Nankivell’s contract will be up at the end of next season, leaving only one forward and one back the following season (Kleyn and Abrahams have both signed 2-year contracts) so Munster will have to produce a homegrown centre after that to add to Scannell, O’Brien, and Tom Farrell, or scout an IQ option.

    Ulster are losing Kitshoff, and will be releasing Ewers in the back row and signing Kok as a winger.
    Reportedly there has to be a tightening of the finances next season so Ewers isn’t being retained nor are they seeking to add another forward. The good news is there are a few high quality young players coming through in the forwards. There still might be a case for scouting an IQ forward for next season.

    Connacht have 1 marquee player in Cordero, but didn’t really get any advantage out of him with missing most of the season through injury.
    Porch is a good squad option, and Hurley-Langton reminds me of CJ Stander, has big performances regularly, only a pity he would have to stay playing in Ireland for 5 seasons to become IQ.

    So Connacht have one forward, and two backs, and Cordero is the highest profile but wouldn’t be as good as years ago. After next season they may be down to one forward and one back.

    That seems to be the future planned model for all provinces after next season. All winding down from 3 down towards 2, and probably will be looking for higher quality NIE/NIQ signings once it gets down to that level.

    I think the end game may be 1 high quality forward and 1 high quality back, with assurance that a high potential player is not being blocked, and possibly no foreign signings will be allowed in the front row or in the half-backs in particular unless IQ.

    Post edited by Jump_In_Jack on




  • It just isn’t accurate to say Barrett and Snyman are surplus to requirements. Even with Snyman, Leinster will only have four senior second rows in the squad this season, one of whom is a pretty callow and undersized Brian Deeny. There is currently only one lock in the academy as well.

    I actually think even with Snyman we need another senior second row option and was really hoping they’d bring back Jack Dunne before his Exeter re-signing. Ryan & McCarthy will be in Ireland squads, and Snyman is unreliable from an injury perspective and will be in SA squads, so we absolutely look light in the second row to me.

    Think it’s also a bit unfair to say Ala’alatoa should be replaced by a Leinster produced THP. Leinster would argue if they still had Jack Aungier or Roman Salanoa on their books then those are the guys who would have stepped in, but they were lured elsewhere. Clarkson has developed well but he’s still just 24, a baby in prop terms.

    Rory McGuire is just 21. He’s looked good, but the notion that Leinster would roll into next season with just Furlong, Clarkson and McGuire as THP options is ridiculous, especially given how Furlong’s minutes are managed. Munster, by contrast, have four senior THPs on their books and at least another two in the academy (plus Kieran Ryan who appears to be swapping to THP).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    So in other words, Leinster players re surplus to requirements and all the rest of the provinces are not. Leinster do have a free slot for next year so I expect they will sign a player for that slot. If that's in the front row then so be it

    Who is winding down on numbers? the 42 just reported that Connacht have been given approval for another NIQ for injury cover

    Ulster reduction in numbers of because of mismanagement in Ulster in terms of the home game in Europe, also the naming rights of the stadium which are still up in the air. By the looks of it they have got these things sorted and a new coaching ticket.

    Munster have their slots full and I don't see anyone saying they won't be able to keep those slots full



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I'd say Leinster would be okay with zero NIQs from the start of the season after next. They could sign Josh Murphy to replace Snyman, and Deeny and O'Tighearnaigh will be more developed by then, all being well.

    Maybe they try to sign a pacy back three player like Shaun Stevenson.



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