Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

It's also very outdated. Professional players in Ireland by and large are well educated, well advised individuals. They make decisions with their brains, not their hearts and that's part of the reason they've made it to the level they're at.

As I posted above, Harry Byrne ended up in the Irish 23 in the 6N this season from his position with Leinster. Does anyone think he'd be in the Irish 23 if he had been first choice for Connacht this season? That's his current frame of reference. With all due respect to Harry Byrne, he isn't a guy that is going to transform the Connacht performances and drag them up the table, thereby forcing his way into the Irish frame again. There's a lot more wrong in Connacht right now than their outhalf.

And, if he's discounting Irish selection from the equation, I'd imagine a move to England/France is potentially more appealing.

What is the broader skill set Frawlay?

Why is he better than the Byrnes?

Sorry I see this posted all the time but never see anyone actually explain why he is better, just vague statements and nothing concrete.

For me, Frawley is a better all-round rugby player - more dynamic with ball in hand, better passing, more aggressive in possession, a bit more unpredictable. I think Ross is very competent with ball in hand but when he receives the ball from JGP in the line, it's guaranteed to be passed straight through - whereas with Frawley there's a better chance of go-forward ball, offloads and/or taking the defenders on. Also, Frawley has much more pace.

That said, Ross is a better kicker (both on the pitch and from the tee) and outside of a few blips here and there, is largely rock solid on that front.

Hansen and Aki did go well in Connacht, undoubtedly. I'd consider them very different propositions though. Hansen is the sort of guy who is going to make things happen even if things aren't going well for the team. Aki is a world class player who broke into the Irish set up when Connacht were in a very different situation.

I just don't see Harry Byrne as someone who will make the impact of the above guys unless he has good ball given to him which isn't being generated currently. On a good day, HB is going to look top class with front foot ball and lads like Cordero and Hansen coming off their wings to link with him. On a bad day, he's going to be given slow ball with a defender in his face, do his best with it but probably still make some errors and overplay it a little. Not hugely different to Carty but with potentially a lower error count. If he goes there, I think the probability is higher that he becomes closer to the current Connacht level than bringing the Connacht level up.

It's never going to happen but the guy who would probably benefit Connacht the most by far is Ross Byrne. He's far more of a pragmatic player, demands more of those around him (note him absolutely bollocking James Lowe in the Champion's Cup final for f*cking up his line on an attacking play) and will drive standards. He's also pragmatic and has a very low error count which is something that has killed Connacht this season. But it ain't happening ever, unfortunately.

Ok but thats in comparison to Ross.

In terms of Harry I would say he has those advantages over Ross but has more speed than Frawley and is better with ball in hand.

Harry problem seems to be down to the odd error in a match.

Ross is superior to all of them I agree in terms of kicking, the blips are very few and far between and only really the Northampton game in recent memory.

Now if you look at that, you are Leinster and have Ross who is a better kicker and an experienced option who can run the team and bring them to finals. Then you have Harry who IMO is better than Frawley at the things that Frawley is better than Ross, you end up in the current situation.

It has now come to random fans just saying to give Frawley a chance, not really because he is exceptional or massively better, just seems to be someone new at 10. Going back to the stuff we see with people claiming XYZ should be given a start for Ireland because they think it will automatically make them better because they play a game or two. Which IMO is just nonsense.

For some reason the Byrne brothers seem to get a very unnatural hatred from some in the rugby supporters, it was mostly coming from opposition fans for years but can see it now creeping into some Leinster fans, including some people putting a conspiracy theory together that Byrne's father has some link with leo and that's why he only plays them :-)

Now this might sound bad, but it's not, I like all of the players and want Leinster to keep them all, but to me Frawley is the backup to Keenan at 15, can cover 12 and can cover 10 if required, great if Leinster want to play a 6/2 bench but not a player who is going to start at 10 for Leinster next season in a semi/final of Europe. Now I could be wrong, but thats my opinion

There was a very good set of graphs pulled together by a journalist online of various metrics of the top end outhalves in club rugby this season on their carrying game. As expected, Ross Byrne's numbers were quite low. He carries less than every other outhalf and a fairly solid number of his carries (about average) are into contact.

But what was interesting was the try involvements per carry. Whilst he's making less carries, his % of try involvements is quite high. Essentially a try is scored for every 10 of his carries which is only behind Libbok and Carter Gordon in terms of percentage. That, to me, suggests that he's a very decent organiser and decision maker in attack, with a good read on when to pull the trigger. I don't think the other guys are as good at that, partially from lack of time in the jersey but there are some guys that are just naturally adept in those areas and I don't get the feeling that HB is (Sam Prendergast seems a bit more of that type though, from the little I've seen).

But there's no doubt that his lack of carrying has to have an impact on the overall game plan i.e. committing defenders, creating space on subsequent phases or requiring attention. I think that's where LAR f*cked up and made RB look like an excellent player. They went after him. I found it odd that they said that was their plan and they'd do it again if they played the game again. He's a good player with good hands. He was able to get the ball away and put others into space. He's also very slow. Let him have the ball. He's not going to hurt you with his legs. Teams that stifle Leinster sit off RB and lock down his options, forcing him to sit deeper and kick or go into contact.

Yeah here is where he has a limitation.
Nearly all 8 forwards are more likely to make a line break. His passing is also predictable and a little slow for an elite out half.
Doesn't matter when the rest of your team are dominating but it does when they aren't. Actually thought against Toulouse we had dominance but not enough for his limitations to be noticed. So those 5m touch kicks he missed - they did end up mattering.

he had that chance last season IMO.

its time to move on, though I doubt it will happen.

The 1st option for a 10 when they catch the ball is to carry it. Ross Byrne doesn't have that option and it means teams are baiting him to do it. It essentially makes whatever moves we have defunct as the opposition can fan out and cover all the options. He's been found out, it's time to move on IMO.

Yet he has got them to a final two years in a row and wasn't the reason Leinster lost

The games we lost in the URC was Ross part of any of them?

Team is out.

5-3 split with Prendergast and Frawley benching. Conan injured and still no Ringrose.

The Ringrose 'return' (or lack therof) is so strange.

Two hours ago, Leinster posted the below picture…

Leinster Rugby (caps in brackets)
15. Jimmy O’Brien (80)
14. Jordan Larmour (106)
13. Robbie Henshaw (90)
12. Jamie Osborne (46)
11. James Lowe (79)
10. Ross Byrne (160)
9. Jamison Gibson-Park (140)

1. Andrew Porter (120)
2. Dan Sheehan (62)
3. Tadhg Furlong (145)
4. Joe McCarthy (33)
5. James Ryan (81) CAPTAIN
6. Ryan Baird (69)
7. Josh van der Flier (141)
8. Caelan Doris (81)

Replacements:
16. Rónan Kelleher (63)
17. Cian Healy (277)
18. Michael Ala’alatoa (70)
19. Ross Molony (182)
20. Max Deegan (112)
21. Luke McGrath (210)
22. Sam Prendergast (17)
23. Ciarán Frawley (87)

Referee: Andrew Brace (IRFU)Top