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Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭wazzzledazzle


    It's not only the Dail, i'll use Paul Gavan for example in debates leading up to the Elections. Whilst most advised of what they had achieved, or what they would do, this guy was bleeting on about how the government didn't do this that or the other.

    People want solutions. They can make there own mind up on how the government is or has performed.

    Offer solutions, costed, tangible and be honest. It's not difficult.

    If they don't change tack, they'll get the same result come GE time.

    FWIW, I do think they'll cop on to themselves somewhat and change their approach



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,193 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nothing to do with them rubbish in opposition?

    Could you outline what it is you expect an opposition to achieve or do?
    And maybe give an example of an Irish one that has functioned 'properly'?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭standardg60


    You calmly and reasonably set out what you'd do differently and be prepared to defend that policy with costed and rational arguments.

    Not 'i was talking to a woman who can't sleep at night' over every single issue.

    It was famously said once that anger is not a policy, SF still haven't gotten that memo.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,905 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I think it would not be unfair to say that SF did half the job of Opposition reasonably well.

    An opposition has to hold the government to account and challenge the things they are doing , this bit SF did an OK job on albeit a bit shouty and lacking in depth.

    The other role of opposition is to offer viable alternatives and this is where SF have failed in a significant manner , their inability to pick a policy and stick with it has come back to haunt them as people simply have no faith in them.

    And the closer we get to a General election the less important the former and the more important the latter becomes and their weakness in putting forth a consistent viable alternative is hurting them more and more as the clock ticks down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,193 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The government haven't taken votes from SF though.
    Independents did, and they have achieved nothing yet.

    People do want solutions, and I don't agree that SF have offered none. They have, you may find them dishonest etc but they have solutions.
    For this election on LE issues the people have decided to take their punt on Idependents, SF's LE vote is up and the government parties are down.

    Whatever about SF that rag tag of independents will quickly disappoint the electorate as they can effectively be ignored.





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  • Posts: 45,738 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As ridiculous as SF are now it's a bit premature for ott comments on their demise.

    It was an election for councillors who are a waste of space imo, and control next to no policies that are important for most people.

    The real proof on SFs standing with the electorate will come at GE time. They recovered really well last time from a similar position (maybe even worse).

    There'll be a lot of people with egg on the their faces after the next GE imo, and I say that as one of Mary Lou"s biggest critics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Ahh I see this is the PR angle MLMD is trying and now the online army

    Desperation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,644 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    The party whose comrades have great experience robbing banks and blowing a province to pieces ( 19,000 bombs) should, if they wish to go in to government in a democratic country, know what an opposition should do or have done.

    Mary Lou should have known by now. She was best friends with Biden when he was over. Bet he, being a friend of Israel, is not best friends with her now? Incidentally, I think of the 3 return trips (at least) she is know to have taken to America in the Spring - one a few weeks before Paddies Day, one a few weeks after that, and then one to Boston recently. Did you hear if she went economy class?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,193 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That's what they will concentrate on, getting the message out on what their specific solutions and policy is.

    I think they didn't fight back strongly enough on the hysterics about them changing tack on 'open borders' for instance. The track record was there, MLMD was saying the exact same thing on open borders in 2007 as the party is now. That got lost in what was frankly, orchestrated hysterics (echoed here) over what Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire said.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,905 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Whilst I think they will do better in the GE than they have this time out there is absolutely no question that the trend is downward in terms of their support.

    They also genuinely seem to struggle with Election strategy here - That's 3 Elections in a row now where they have gotten the candidate/vote management strategy badly wrong.

    The major sticks to beat the Government are beginning to trend in their favour making it a harder sell for SF over the next 4/5 months until a likely Election.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,742 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    SF will be doing very well to alter their policy stances very substantially in just 4 months, certainly not enough to convince the wedge of voters who they need to convince.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,193 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Couple of things there:
    The Ireland Thinks survey of exiting voters shows an interesting bit of information:

    However the survey also showed just how volatile Irish politics has become, with almost half of voters only making up their mind in the week of polling. 

    This finding won't be missed either:

    The survey also suggested deficiencies in its campaign, with 18% of voters saying they had met a Sinn Fein candidate compared to 34% for Fine Gael and 35% for Fianna Fail.

    The strategy of running too many candidates I think is just one of those things, the decision was taken way back and it was dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. Any strategy can fail if half the electorate is only making it's mind up in the last week.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Councillors are not a waste of space. In reality they do the majority of the work in keeping voters. Our biggest issue is having Independent TD's who are just overpaid councillors because they have no interest in policies or the good of Ireland.

    SF fired out, in my area anyway, a group of strangers. Nobody knew them and they had no links in the community, I posted at the time it wasn't going to be a success.

    Sf problem now is MLMD going around doing interviews which will have an affect on the long term election

    Plus people have seen SF behind all the noise is a bt of a rabble, so again people will start looking at their policies. MLMD saying the policies need to be changed also highlighted this, once you look at the policies then you see the total incompetence from the party.

    Plus will they get the revolt vote, doesn't look like it, so they won't pick up random TD's that nobody had any idea who they are because they didn't want to vote for other parties. Plenty of those in last election like Violet Anne. People won't get bitten again with that.

    Will they do better? they could

    Will they win the election? I doubt it. Remember all the fake online accounts in reality break down to one person and one vote



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,905 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Fair points , but they don't seem to be learning from the strategy mistakes.

    Will they up their up their "ground game" sufficiently to make a difference?

    They ran too many candidates in 2019 , too few in 2020 , too many this time out - What chances that they get a fright and make the wrong call again in a few months time?

    As I said , Electoral strategy does not appear to be their strong point.

    TBF , SF have only been trying to be a "big party" for the last 4/5 election cycles (of all kinds) whereas FF and FG have a century of experience in running a strong nationwide ground game and here with PR-STV that need to be at least palatable to everyone means the ground game matters a lot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,193 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Even two months out from closing nominations date, who would have forseen the amount of independents running. Or the boost those independents got from the focus on immigration in the media.

    On such things the worm turns as they say.

    I don't think putting people out on the campaign trail, meeting people and being visible is that big a challenge tbh. If they want it, it should come easy.
    If they don't learn well they will reap what they sow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,138 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    SF have had five decades to figure out PR-STV in Northern Ireland - introduced in 73 for the Sunningdale assembly and for locals.

    They appear to be unable to handle it when transfers don't generally go solidly on sectarian lines.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    They didn't run too many in 20219, in the likes of DCC they right got kicked out because of their awful record

    THey have been next to useless in most county councils and running a load of nobodies this time who have done nothing in the community was never going to end up well.

    Even in our area of all the people going for it, including a few independents you could pick out the few actively engaged in the community and helping people, none of them from SF

    In terms of 2020, the too few I have yet to see backup, the claim made by many is Green Party got in because of SF transfers, when someone done actual analyse this was found to be incorrect.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,482 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Worked alright for FF and FG back at the foundation of the state



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,514 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    The problem with the hospital are multiple. The decisions to close 3 emergency units ( Ennis, Nenagh and St Johns) and squeeze them into a constricted site was managments. Government give a budget and tge HSE manages that budget.

    Another issue with Limerick is the budget is controlled from Galway ( or used to be anyway). This starved Limerick of funds for a period between 4 and 10 years ago. However it seems to get adequate funds at present. Triageing patients is an issue. Significant amount of bed blockers. My wife had an elderly single relative in there for 12+weeks after a minor stroke. She was finally moved to a nursing home a fortnight ago.

    Patients not needing tier one care should be redirected to St Johns, Ennis and Nenagh and moved on from there again. However lack of beds and space is an issue. There is definitely vested interests holding up progress there as well I imagine. Its had to believe tge sane CEO has been in charge of tge hospital all this time

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,482 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I don't think the govt are very likely to lose by-elections as it goes. They're riding very high at the moment so unless something disastrous happens they should comfortably win any by-election thrown their way.

    Mind you, your points about efforts going in just for another election less than 12 months later could be true for the govt, but also true for the opposition. A cross chamber deal for once-off legislation to not have a by-election could be another solution



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,688 ✭✭✭touts


    Sinn Fein thought this week couldn't get any worse. Then Liveline started.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,905 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    For another thread , but yes the lack of step-down care to move patients to respite or even back home is a large part of the challenge.

    It's not necessarily more Hospital beds , it's more respite beds and more carers for in-home assistance that are really needed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,514 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    By Elections take on a life of there own, they end up fought on local not national issues. They be 4-5 of them with someone going to the EU commission. It gives tge government tge excuse to run to the country, they will take that option.

    SF have a problem with who to replace MLMD. PD is another screamer and EOB is a nodding donkey. The ideal candidate woukd gave been Peader Tobin but they managed to lose him instead of giving a free vote on moral issues it was careless of them

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,193 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    As I said earlier, for a cohort there will be no acceptable leader of SF.

    The appeals to change the leader therefore are about as valid as PBP supporters picking the new leader of FF or FG.

    Why bother, it is not as if they are going to convince that cohort to vote for them ever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,464 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    FF ruined Ireland and are now aligned with FG because FG rehabilitated FF

    This is an untruth and lie.

    The people voted for FF in 2016 and again in 2019. Are you calling the people stupid, much like MLMD did yesterday?

    Why didnt SF capture these voters who were so unhappy with FF and FG? Blame the people because they are stupid?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,464 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    This as well.

    Anytime I looked at the Euro debates on TV, the FF and FG types were always heads and sholders above the SF types. A few notable Independents were also competent even if I might disagree with them.

    Simply put, in terms of talent alone, SF don't have nearly as much as FF and FG. This resonates with people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭wazzzledazzle


    I'd also have to agree with this. I thought they were really poor.

    If anything i thought candidates from Green and Labour spoke particluarly well, even if neither candidate will be elected.

    I actually voted for Barry Cowen based on the fact he came across as the most professional in the debates i saw believe it or not



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,193 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




    FG lambasted FF for what they did in 2008 and the then leader of FG as recently as 2020 said, putting them back in government would be like putting Delaney back in the FAI, they (FG) are now aligned with them - in government together.

    With volte face's like that, FG and SF could be the next government. 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,093 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Your analysis is missing a whole piece.

    The people have realised that the problems with the health service are going to be very difficult to resolve. However, they have also begin to realise that Sinn Fein are not capable of solving those very difficult problems. Ireland is one of the best places to live in this world, and the reasons include the governments we have had so better those who are solving the problems slowly than those who can't solve the problems and will likely make all other things worse.

    That is the problem facing Sinn Fein, and no amount of you or MLMD or Eoin bleating that this government isn't up to it will change that. The only thing that will change things is Sinn Fein actually developing some policies that will work better or quicker than the government's one. So whenever I ask about SF and climate change and am shown some ridiculous policy from 2019 or ask about health and get shown the 2017 policy, that only reinforces the conclusion that Sinn Fein have zero ideas.

    When they have produced any ideas - reduce all house prices to €300k, putting loads of people in negative equity while bringing back ground rents - they are disastorous.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,644 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Fair play to Joe Duffy. He left someone speechless when he brought up the Mullaghmore bombing when the pIRA deliberately saw kids, and an elderly woman on the little boat and still blew them up.



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