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Why don't the Labour Party and the Social Democrats merge?

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  • 10-06-2024 11:48am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭


    There is zero benefit to having two small social democratic parties fighting for the same vote - why don't they merge (after all the SDs come from the Labour gene pool)? The resulting economies of political scale could see them become a proper force in Irish politics again and one that could be seen as potentially crucial coalition partners when it comes to forming the next government.

    If they want a name, I'm sure their northern friends wouldn't raise too much fuss if they call themselves the SDLP. 😉



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 68,550 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Because the two until recently SD co-leaders, who retain huge influence, would never countenance it; basically.

    When they eventually retire (they have their Dáil seats for life, realistically) it may be possible.

    There'd also be significant issues with deciding on a name - the Soc Dem name hasn't got baggage but Labour would likely still be the bigger party in terms of both public reps and members 2:1 or so; and a bigger geographic spread of where those reps and members are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    So basically personality differences are standing in the way of the wider good of social democracy in Ireland?

    If that is the case, then I would suggest that those personalities should be nudged aside.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭Dr Turk Turkelton


    Ah Raoul you know as well as anybody that a meeting of these left leaning parties always ends up like a scene from a Monty Python movie.

    Would pay to see their first meeting live streamed though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,550 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    When the SDs are basically just a party built around those personalities, it isn't possible to nudge them aside.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,741 ✭✭✭Augme


    There's also a reason all the current SDs never joined Labour and instead joined the SDs. They didn't do it because they didn't realise Lavour existed. For various reasons they didn't feel Labour aligned with their views. The same for SD voters. They vote for the SD because they feel Labour dont/didn't aligned with their views. That's still something that would need to be considered and whether SD members would vote for a mearge.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,550 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The only time I've seen someone in the SDs express a reason that wasn't either baggage or leadership related was about laws relating to sex work. Which would currently be intractable as Bacik won't budge on her opinion on that.

    I don't think that is the driving issue for most of the membership of the SDs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,741 ✭✭✭Augme


    But you have basically said it is being stopped by two big personalities in the SDs. Why did Hilly Cairns join SD and not Labour?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,550 ✭✭✭✭L1011




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,741 ✭✭✭Augme


    There's no need. But I have a feeling the reason isn't that she was forced to by the two big personalities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,550 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Those preventing a potential merger are not those controlling which party people join or vote for.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,783 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Labours purse strings are still controlled by the ex worker's party types, and that's a turn off. They would fall out with a stick.

    Personality types as well, Labour are more old school refined, where as the Social Democrats are a more on trend type.

    In a normal circumstance they would merge as the differences are small but they won't.

    The SD are the people who would be labour youth



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Simple answer is two parties will garner more overall support than one.

    If FF and FG merged ( you could make the same argument that their policies align), their combined support would be a lot less than it is now.

    Pat Rabbite said as much in relation to Democratic Left when they merged with Labour.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Really? I would have thought the opposite i.e. that they get in each others way and crowd out each others candidates



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    The SD are just people from Labour who are afraid of going into government.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,741 ✭✭✭Augme


    As I said, there's a reason she, and the others, joined the SD. I just find it strange that those reasons wouldnt also exclude a mearger with Labour.



  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭gym_imposter


    Nonsense

    Resources are split and more importantly votes are split



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,018 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Shortall has to go.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,367 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the left look for traitors, the right look for converts.

    there's a little bit of truthiness to that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭StormForce13


    Not a hope! The two former co-leaders are on the pig's back. Both have the full State Contributory Pension plus TD's salaries and expenses. (Shortie might have a Junior Minister's pension too, if she was a junior for long enough - I don't know if that's paid when a TD reaches 66)

    If they retire, they'll be left with nothing to do except reading the papers, cutting the grass and minding the grandchildren.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    You could say that the people who went from SF to Labour weren't afraid of going into government.

    (One of several SF's and via Democratic Left)



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,703 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Not having an idealogical stake in distinghishing between the two parties, I would say that having had to trudge through some of Bacik's legal papers during a course I can see why merging would be problematic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,081 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I don't know but I'm sick of them being asked this at every interview. It's not going to happen anytime soon. You don't need to ask them for the 90th time!



  • Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭plibige


    Seems odd to want to merge them. What are the long term pro's, this new left party ends up being the junior party in government and drifts to the centre. Then gets obliterated in the following election and there is no alternative other than the greens to centre left voters. Rinse repeat.

    It's good and healthy to have choice, they can grow in a healthy separate manner, and differentiate on policy in small ways to give people healthy choice.

    I think the calculations of merge Lab and SD and 1+1=2, wouldn't work out as well as people think. More than likely it will be 1+1=1.5 at best, in terms of support



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Oh no, being a government coalition partner, what a terrible fate!

    Isn't the whole point of being in politics to actually get to implement your policies? In order to do that, you need a certain level of scale and organization. SDLP is far better than SD + LAB in that regard. Run 1 candidate per constituency and they might realistically aim for 15-20 seats.

    If you actively don't want to be in government (hello PBP and nearly all Independents), that's fine but at least be honest enough to tell those who vote for you that your policies will never be enacted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Ex workers party??

    Workers party members left and joined Democratic Left in early 90s, Labour and DL merged in late 90s. Thats 25 years ago in case you hadnt noticed.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Heraclius




  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Heraclius


    I don't see much upside really. They probably separately attract more votes and seats than they would as one party.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    the floating voters will certainly pull the tab for them (2 puns for the price of one, thank you thank you, I'm here all week)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    correct, Labour were punished for entering government in 2011. I think history will judge them favourably, they were part of an administration that had limited choices. However the economy we have now reflects this, it would be easy to do the student Union politics and sit it out with no constructive input



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