EU to impose multibillion-euro tariffs on Chinese electric cars (thread bans see post #1)

First the greens wanted us driving clean diesel and now it's Chinese EV's, is it any wonder they took a kicking in the euro elections.

I agree fully with your statement. Yes the Chinese are blatantly stealing our automotive intellectual property. They have done so for many decades in other industries too. Pretty sickening for a western company that has spent billions in research and development to get there

But throwing up barriers and punishments against this, simply doesn't work and is bad for consumers worldwide. Why do you think Elon Musk got his Chinese factory faster than any other western company got one? Only one reason for it: he explicitly allows the Chinese to clone and steal all aspects of the cars. To the huge benefit of the whole world and bringing forward electrification many years.

So yes, I am cheering it on in the name of the worldwide consumer and would do so if I worked for Tesla. Maybe not so much if I worked for another western car company that would not be as far ahead with tech and efficient manufacturing and high margins, and would possibly go down in this major disruption. Like Toyota or Stellantis.

Again, meddling with the market is the reason for the tariffs. Why can't people see that?

IP theft works both ways. Some of the BEV tech coming out of China is ahead of Western tech so what's stopping Western companies from cloning the new batteries and so forth, and saving themselves a ton in R&D.

Tariffs will be added (at an as yet unannounced date) on the base price of a car. That is to say before taxes, delivery charges and grants are added. So in the case of the RWD Tesla Model 3 with no extras if, for example, 20% were to be added €40,990 this would become €49,188 before grants, charges and taxes etc are applied

Note that I am using the Model 3 as an example as it's the only car I can easily find a base price on. To my knowledge the Chinese govt don't directly subsidise Tesla, hence why I assume they are not on the list and in theory their prices shouldn't be affected by the tarrifs.

While theories are great, in reality this makes BYD, MG, Volvo and Polestar EVs more expensive so you can be nearly guaranteed that Tesla, and European manufacturers, will raise their prices similarly. Kiss goodbye to the long rumoured VW ID 2

People need to remember also that this is not Chinese industry leading the charge. The Chinese Govt made very deliberate policy decisions years ago to position itself as not only the leading manufacturing country of EVs, but also the major supplier of parts in the supply chain, so much so that if you wanted to build an EV, invariably some parts would need to be sourced from China. This itself is not unusual as car parts are sourced all over the world, it just the Chinese now dominate in particular components eg batteries.

There are well over a 100 manufacturing brands in China selling mainly to the domestic market. Many of these will fail, either folding, aquired or merged. The Govt there expects that there will ultimately be a number of very strong companies that come out of this and they will be dominant global players.

Tariffs or not, the Chinese wave is coming.

That ship has already sailed. We rely on China for too much and have largely ignored IP theft for decades. Western companies were more than happy to buy low-cost Chinese components when it suited them and they weren't seen as competition, but as a supplier. What's happening now is inevitable.

If it pushes Chinese companies to set up in Europe, that's great, but IMO it's just kicking the can down the road. As you said, they'll just work around it by setting up in Europe; I think they'll still undercut the competition and subsidise through whatever means to get the lion's share and push out the competition (scorched earth tactics).

I stand by what I said - the EU manufacturers have been sitting on the fence for too long. Whilst the Chinese have been busy beavering away, they have been dawdling and indecisive. Perhaps it's time for a monumental shift in how the automotive industry is run in Europe. If the automotive industry in China is state-sponsored and collaborative, why not do the same here?

My personal view is that Climate Change is a real danger and adding barriers to people transitioning from the most polluting object they own doesn't make sense. If things keep going as they are there won't be an automotive industry to protect.

General populations in Europe are being forced into EV's, they aren't all desperately wanting them. They want cheap cars and local jobs.

A positive political impact, if any.

It's nothing to do with emissions? I disagree, it has a lot to do with emissions. The government and EU are trying to reduce their carbon emissions. Transitioning more people to EVs is a step to help reduce emissions because on average, a diesel car produces around 2,000kg of carbon annually. This wouldn't be an issue if they weren't pushing people to EVs because European car makers have a large segment of the ICE market - they're established, experienced, reputable (for the most part), and when making a significant purchase, most people look for that. Generally, the only way to offset that is through price and long warranties, but that doesn't always work.

If the Chinese are subsidising my car and making it more affordable, and as such helping to transition more people to BEV, then that's a win-win in my books. It's better to come out of the Chinese pockets than ours.

I understand this gives them an unfair advantage and I am more than aware of the impact this will have on European manufacturers, but they are the architects of their own downfall. Most people don't buy cars based on price; they buy them based on reliability, warranty, performance, technology, resale value, brand, reputation, etc. Price is not at the top of their agenda, hence the popularity of premium brands like Audi, Mercedes, BMW, etc. The European manufacturers have this.

If a brand is sitting on the fence and not really committing to something, it will affect its customers' sentiment. If the customer finds the message opaque, they lose confidence. If the alternative is competitively priced and has a clear message, they will be more inclined to try it. BEVs are relatively new technology and people want reassurance with new technology. The European manufacturers could offer this, but they have dropped the ball IMO, and are paying the price.

has it actually been published what level of state aid each chinese manufacturer is allegedly receiving?

Remarkable (but unsurprising) to see this thread balloon to 3 pages, with plenty of people complaining about the tariffs but not willing to even discuss how China can afford to heavily subsidise car production

Is there nobody who is screaming for a cheap EV willing to talk about forced labour? Modern-day slavery? Hello, are you still there?

And lets not metion anything about how much CO2 is emitted by manufacturing batteries in China from coal fired powerplants.