Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

It's probably been mentioned on the thread already, but if it wasn't so tragically ironic, the most antisemitic thing you can do is to murder semites, you know, what Israel is doing.

Oh. You should inform the ICC prosecutor Khan of that. Who starts something determines if crimes have been committed.

Also the conflict has been going on well before October 7th. You clearly don't think Palestinians count when you continue to pass off their deaths as incidental. I suppose Its easier to believe that than confront your own bias and hypocrisy. I will repeat it again for you dropping a 2000 pound bomb on a refugee camp that kills scores of civilians is not the incidental killing of civilians. Still maybe I am wrong and if a few IDF soliders were killed along with scores of Israel civilians in an attack you'd describe their deaths as incidental.

What evidence is there to indicate that Israel relied on Gazan health ministry casualty numbers?

What evidence is there of the IDF intending to kill civilians? To accuse the IDF of that is like accusing British and American forces of intending to kill civilians when they carried out attacks on German forces in Normandy in 1944.

Aside from bombing places like hospitals, universities, refugee camps etc? or the deliberate targeting of journalists and aid workers? or the videos that have been posted here of them shooting civilians? None that will convince you I suppose. You either genuinely have no idea what you are talking about, and/or are so convinced that anything Israel does is right that it's pointless trying to engage in any sort of discussion with you.

Sigh… Non pro Israeli supporter being called a Hamas Supporter. Lame. And discredits your arguments.

What evidence?

The fact arrest warrants have been sought by ICC prosecutor Khan. The US Justice Department in a report concluding it was quite likely the IDF had used weapons that contravened rules around the use of transfered weapons. The findings of Israel Human rights groups and UN Bodies that war crimes were likely commited by the IDF in this war.

You'd nearly think that the internet wasn't full of videos of women getting shot in the head by snipers while walking across the street with children.

Even when the IDF shot three of their own their excuse was "they were dressed like civilians"………… Do you not remember that? From an official spokesperson trying to explain why they blew away three of their own?

Sigh, its exhausting I know.

I'm well aware of the definition of antisemitism. I was pointing out the cruel irony of actual ethnic Semites being killed and the criticism of this being decried as antisemitism. I'm more than happy to accept the definition of antisemitism as being anti-Jewish however. As an aside, you do know the US are looking to pass a bill that now includes any criticism of Israel as antisemitism: https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2024-05-07/explainer-the-controversy-surrounding-the-antisemitism-bill

i.e. that pointing out Israel is committing a genocide will be subject to the same processes? And you do know that's the issue right? That the ideology of Zionism is being conflated with Judaism. That many Jewish people worldwide are trying to distance themselves from Zionism as much as possible.

Anyway I was reluctant to answer you as like I said you haven't got a clue, but here's some background info to October 7th.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Palestine-Israeli-Conflict-Beginners-Guide-Guides/dp/086154370X

Actually a pretty good book even if it is a beginner guide. Starts in Palestine from ~1840, so well pre-the fall of the Ottoman Empire and how relations there were good between all peoples, i.e the Ottomans allowed them to administer their own affairs until English interference and multiple broken promises eventually led to a win for Zionism at the expense of the native population. In fact even when they get to the where both authors debate each others points, you realize the case for a Jewish state is tenuous at best, at least in its current form, as they have to acknowledge the bloody history of the foundation of the state of Israel.

https://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851685553

Details the events leading to the Nakba and how Israel used the 1947 Palestine conflict to execute the planned expulsion of Palestinians from their land. Expulsion was a known prerequisite (it's in Herzl's diaries) for the foundation of an all Jewish state and population demographics were extremely important. Something that David Ben-Gurion was all too aware of when Israel captured so much land. In fact its painted as Israel being the nice guys in that they retreated both times (1948/1967) when the real reason is that they didn't have the population to keep what they'd captured.

There are a couple of other Norman Finkelstein/John Mearsheimer/Joe Sacco books I can also recommend specifically detailing the life of people in Gaza in particular and the power of the Israeli lobby in US politics but there's enough there to get started on.

If you don't want to read any of those, have a gander through some of the massacres perpetrated by Israel on Palestinian territories: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_Palestinian_territories

You'll notice most are pre-October 7th. Hell, some of them are even pre-hamas (my guys 🙄), pre-hezbollah and even pre-the Iranian revolution.

Anyway I'm out, seen as you haven't bothered to inform yourself of anything pre-2023 (even if you did that you'd be aware of the cleansing going on in the West Bank in the first 9 months, where Hamas (my guys 🙄) don't operate), its hard to see how this can achieve anything. Oh and on a final note, don't try to win a discussion with a "gotcha". It's embarrassing.

It is indeed. I'm glad you're condemning Hamas finally, though. That shows better character than I thought initially when you didn't. As for the US bill, that's absurd along with inviting Bibi to speak, just cheap GOP pandering.

As for massacres, plenty to go around on both sides, including October 7th: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Israel

no “finally” about it. They previously condemned Hamas and you treated it as some gotcha that they didn’t condemn Hamas pretty please with cherries on top, they didn’t say their 3 Hail Marys for you. Almost as convoluted as ‘No sorry you didn’t condemn Hamas in the form of a question, we can’t reward you any points, therefore you’re a Hamas supporter’ etc. Nobody has to say their 3 Hail Marys for such droll nonsense as this.

Also, what an incredibly odd way to frame it.

"Plenty to go around on both side, including October 7th"

Thats it, no historical context required. The world started on that day!

Do you condemn the US and Israel? You know two of the biggest terrorists entities on the planet? You know the ones who overthrow regimes, actively kill civilians, think world order doesn't apply to them, don't recognise the ICC/ICJ?

Cheers for the backup! :)
Tbh I don't mind. I normally go with who the Germans are supporting, they've a pretty bad record at this.

Well them or Tommy Robinson.