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Plans to end direct rail services between Wexford and Dublin

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,033 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Never heard why.

    But without it there’s not a hope of longer trains on the southeastern line unless they don’t stop at certain stations.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    They might get away with the shorter train if they were more regular but the truth is that most of us want to be in work by a certain time so it might not change anything. I thought the ICR can lock out doors but it is manual so I presume IR might have issues from a safety perspective. Maybe though its an overrider of a broken door, not too sure.

    That won't happen either as the backlash from that area would not be palatable but it could be done, every second train stops there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    Slightly off topic, but as recently as the 90s or maybe even early 2000s there used to be long special trains to the west after big GAA matches where they would use older fleet and trains that were longer than some of the station platforms. You'd literally have (usually drunk) passengers trying to get off at Ballyhaunis or wherever opening doors and going "nope, no platform there" and then having to run up through another couple of carriages to get off the train!

    But yeah, couldn't happen now for obvious reasons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,730 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I'm fairly certain that the Friday Only services using Mk2s and Cravens to Sligo etc had this problem right up until their withdrawal in the mid 00s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    Or

    • Lenghten platforms as required.
    • Get train sets with selective Door opening.
    • Use a mixture of train lenghts, and the longer train skip stops as required.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,033 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    There physically is no room at Rathdrum to lengthen the platform. That’s the problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,033 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Grandfather rights applied.

    But there is no way that the Commission for Railway Regulation would sanction it now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,730 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Definitely. At the time you could open the doors on the sets in question anywhere including in motion; let alone off the end of a platform.

    I believe the RPSI sets of Craven and Mk2 even have central locking now?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,033 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    There is a difference between a door manually locked out in the case of a defect (which requires the driver to lock it from the outside before the train goes into use and labels to be applied to the door), and selective door opening at short stations which is done using the door control panel by the person opening and closing the doors on stock where SDO is fitted.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    But it could be done, and the CSOs can also lock /open these if the driver gives permission. Lock it at the station before, get on, stick on sign, open at next station. An elegantly simple solution. Where no CSO is present, the door remains locked for the journey with signs up which happens. Anyone buying a ticket for Rathdrum can't book a seat on that carriage, CSO announces after every stop that carriage A or D will not open in Rathdrum.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,033 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I very much doubt that the rule book allows for that.

    That solution would only be allowable where the door is defective.

    The railway works under very strict rules and that sort of “messing around” which is what it would be seen as would not I suspect fall into what would allowed.

    The only workable solution is SDO.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I know, and to be fair, Irish Rail are great the auld H&S, it was more a discussion point of a workable solution. The CSO was opening it on the Wexford line even though the door was "out of service" to let bike users off. It won't happen but it is not impossible to do, but as you said, it won't happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,805 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    There's about 200m to the tunnel I thought (You'd need to cut into the earth a bit though). worst case scenario move the Station to the other side of the viaduct.

    €€€€€€'s though…

    Very strange where those commercial units are to the east of the station, old coal depot I take it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,220 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    No platform south of Greystones apart from Rosslare Europort has a platform long enough for a 6 car ICR

    Rathdrum is the hardest of the lot to deal with but should be reasonably possible, you can squeeze another 5m out on the Dublin end. On the Arklow end, you get into fairly serious realignment and demolition, the water tank would have to go. Need to find about 15m. The real challenge is the falling gradient which starts just at the platform end.

    SDO doesn't help as the train would be likely be too long to fit in the passing loop, its would be extremely tight if it does



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    So Europort is 147m, Strand is 145m, Wexford is 145m, Enniscorthy 140m, Gorey is 145m, Arklow is 133m, Rathdrum is 130m, Wicklow is 132m, Kilcoole is 137m.

    So a 6 carriage ICR is (very roughly) 141m. So the issues are Arklow, Rathdrum, Wicklow and Kilcoole. I think it is certainly possible.

    Just giving ideas, clearly not a train buff. Also from an engineering perspective, could SDO be retrofitted?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,528 ✭✭✭blackbox


    It's a single line from Bray to Wicklow.

    What is the highest frequency of trains possible on this line in both directions? - assuming no shortage of drivers or rolling stock. There is a possible passing point in Greystones.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    At the minute, the DART from Greystones is every 30 minutes, so arrives in, turn over time and back out. They could easily run a regular Wexford line train that overtakes in Greystones, pulls into the side at Platform 3, which gives time to disembark, and move over to Platform 1 for further journeys. For those asking why not just swap at Greystones, it is more an accessibility thing, the up and over, while sometimes unavoidable should be avoided if possible. Also gives good onward journey options to elsewhere via the 155 and others



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭Glencarraig


    Was that census done during the school holidays, if not then its a joke.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭Glencarraig


    So probably a school day. The Dublin - Wexford line is a hell of a lot busier when the schools are closed. Would have made more sense to do the census then.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    That makes zero sense! Public transport is always busier when schools are open!

    School kids travelling on the service, college students commuting to college in Dublin, etc. Also during school holidays adults are also more likely to also be off on holidays abroad, etc.

    The reduction in numbers travelling is so severe during holidays, that Dublin Bus has a completely different summer schedule with greatly reduced schedule versus November.

    November is the perfect time to run such a survey!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭Glencarraig


    Have you been on a Wexford bound train on a hot sunny day in August?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    You can’t judge a line based on tourists using it on a handful of sunny weekend summer days!

    You judge a line based on it carrying people to work, college, school, etc. 5 days a week most of the year.

    If all you have is it carrying a bunch of tourists from time to time, that is a pretty sad reflection on the line and service.

    The point of the rail census is not to record that maximum use of a service, but to find what it’s typical usage on a regular working/school day would look like and to be able to compare it across the network on the same day. What the usage looks like at other stations and lines on the same day.

    As an aside, trains to Wexford being jammed on a Sunday like that doesn’t say much given the low frequency of the service. I’d suspect stations like Howth, Malahide, Bray etc. would be handling vastly more passengers on that same day.

    In the end, on a typical working day, all day long, Wexford station handles just the equivalent of two double decker buses worth of passengers! That is not a successful service.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I just checked, there are only 3 trains a day to Wexford on a Sunday in August, no wonder the odd train might be very busy with so little service!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,229 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    deleted

    Post edited by end of the road on

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The 2022 rail census was 5 years ago?!

    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/NTA-National-Rail-Census-Report-2022-Final.pdf

    To be clear the census was carried out on 10th November 2022, about a year and a half ago. On that day 159 people boarded at Wexford.

    This line as far as Greystones is one of the busiest in the county, but south of Greystones it is by far one the quietest "intercity" line by far. The passenger numbers are terrible.

    On the census day, all the stations south of Greystones handled a total of 609 passengers. To put that in context, Greystones alone handled just under 3 times that many passengers!

    Just to be clear, I don't want to see this line closed, my point is that it is criminally underused and I want to see this greatly improved and for it to enjoy a big increase in service frequency and hopefully a resulting increase in usage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭acceletor


    If you think it's busier in Wexford during November than any of the summer months you are deluded sir.



  • Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭acceletor


    Are those figures for all trains on that particular day?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,229 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    deleted as quoted wrong poster.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,229 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    it doesn't matter when it was carried out as ultimately it's irrelevant as it does not give an accurate picture.
    the line has decent usage as i se it myself, trains right across the day full and in a lot of cases to beyond capacity.
    the only reason this line would ever close is ideological reasons, not usage as usage is good but always room for more.
    every single main line in the country is criminally under-used, because the stock isn't there at the moment to bump up the services and clear the car traffic, but eventually it will be.
    i'm afraid i don't believe your last claim given you support the very proposal this thread is discussing, dispite being told why it will not work and is essentially a deck chair sollution.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Again the point of the rail census is not to measure the highest usage of a line or station throughout the year, but to get a picture of the usage of the entire Irish Rail network (all stations) on a particular day.

    A work day in November is chosen as for most lines and stations get much higher usage during a regular non summer work day when schools college are on.

    The fact that folks here are claiming this line gets more usage during the summer actually reflects really poorly on the line. It means that the line isn't heavily used for commuting/school/college and instead sees the most use when one off summer tourists are using it!

    That is bad, really bad, it shows how underutilised the line is and is not a positive.

    Yes, all passenger boardings and deboardings at the station in question all day long.

    So now you see how poorly used this line south of Greystones is used?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    So I see you have deleted your post above, where you attacked me and said I was "incorrect again" and you claimed that the figures were from 5 years ago!

    I'd appreciate an apology and an admission that I was in fact completely correct and you were wrong.

    For the record this is what you claimed:

    once again you are incorrect, it only handled that figure on one day 5 years ago.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    The Wexford line is quieter in the mornings but busier in the evenings over the summer, always has been. Numbers are down on the first two trains from June to August but there isn't standing room the rest of the day.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I do think this is a good example of how a single persons personal perception might not meet actual reality.

    You might take that train on a Sunday in August and it is super busy, which makes it look like it is a busy service, but not realise that it is just one of three trains total that day so that in reality the line is horribly lightly used.

    By comparison a DART station is getting a train every 10 minutes, which is well over 50 trains a day! So while an individual DART might look quieter, the station and line are actually carrying vastly more passengers throughout the day.

    This is why you do surveys and rail census, to gather real statistics rather then peoples perceptions.

    I honestly don't think it is at all helpful people burying their heads in the sand on how low the usage of this line is and how underutilised it is. Only if people admit the reality, that it has shockingly bad level of service and frequency, can it be fixed!

    And I do want to see this line be fixed and usage improved, by increasing frequency of service.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,229 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    i gave you your appology by deleting the post.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Which makes perfect sense, what you are saying is that it isn't used much by people trying to get to work/college and is instead more used by tourists during the summer months.

    And even then it is just one of three trains per day on the weekend!

    That is fine but not really a good thing, it clearly shows that the line is poorly used, which is the point I'm trying to make. Lets fix it by adding significant frequency and thus capacity to the line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,229 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    nobody is burying their heads in the sand, they just aren't agreeing with you based not on perceptions but actual reality.
    as i said myself i am a very regular user for nearly 40 years and use trains at different parts of the day and i see what i see.
    usage of the line isn't low but like the rest of the regional lines there is room for improvement.
    the vast majority of the network is mostly under-utilised in that it could support more services, that will come in time with campaigning and stock availability.

    if you really do want to see frequency increases on the line and more usage ETC, then you should change your support from supporting the sub par plan this thread is discussing, to supporting the opposition to this proposal.

    because the opposition to this proposal will deliver much more in the long run, even if we have to wait a bit longer.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    That isn't an apology, nor is this, that is just covering your tracks when you were wrong!

    Fair enough if it was a simple factual mistake, we all make those some times, but you were specifically calling me out on being wrong, when you were in fact wrong, so I'd expect you to admit your mistake and a proper apology to me and to not just delete your posts.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    100% and that's why it isn't used is frequency and also the boneshaker of the 6am train rather than the ICR. A few people now drive to Gorey to guarantee an ICR and cut off X minutes of travel despite leaving the house at the same time.

    Edited: should ahve said 6am

    Post edited by CramCycle on


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    because the opposition to this proposal will deliver much more in the long run, even if we have to wait a bit longer.

    No it won't all it will do is leave you with the existing rubbish infrequent service.

    I don't think you and others understand this. The options aren't a shuttle service with an hourly frequency or more direct services, it is the shuttle service or at best the existing direct service with terrible frequency and in the long term even that would be at risk.

    As the line to Grestones gets busier and busier, there will be more and more pressure to increase the frequency of DART and there simply won't be space to fit the direct service in.

    If the people in Wexford reject the findings of the AIRR, I can guarantee you Irish Rail will simply wash their hands of this line and will leave the service largely as is. They already have little enough interest in this service.

    Increasing frequency of this line with a shuttle service would revolutionise this line, bringing far more capacity and frequency and would most likely lead to a big increase in the number of people using the line, which in the end is the goal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,229 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    the bone shaker 29 was only ever on that service as it runs to dundalk.

    apparently that service is to be split at connolly, so if there is a will and a want, it can be swapped with the ICR on the gorey.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,290 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I never understood this "boneshaker" complaint.

    I have honestly never heard it as a complaint outside of the odd thread like this. The vast majority of people outside I train enthusiast thread are not even contemplating what kind of train they are getting when they decide to get one or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,229 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    yes it will, frequencies would be increased direct to dublin a little bit later once rolling stock would be freed up.
    i understand it very well, essentially do nothing or do something to make it look like something is being done when it isn't being done in reality, a swapping of deck chairs.

    but in reality regardless of what some studdy suggests, there is a better option on the table that is deliverable and can deliver way more then a ridiculous shuttle service that could not be operated at an hourly frequency in reality, and that is a little less frequent but direct service that could be operated at a 2 hourly frequency which is more realistic.
    the shuttle is essentially a do nothing service while pretending to do something, a varient of the failed and discredited no growth model imposed on a couple of franchises in the uk, the previous northern rail franchise and the former wales and borders franchise as examples.
    a slightly less frequent direct service on the other hand is very much doing something and really improving the service.
    there will always be space to fit the direct service in because greystones is a very very long way off requiring anything more then an half hour to 20 minute frequency.
    if we get to the stage where there is no room for direct services from wexford, then we are at the stage where there is no option but to build more infrastructure as removing rosslare services would free up very little in reality even at an increased frequency as there will always need to be room for maintenence vehicles, and the large amount of ECS movements that would be needed to sustain the shuttle anyway as due to diagramming and maintenence/servicing etc the same 2 trains won't be on the line for the whole day anyway, not even near it because none of those will be changing to suit this ridiculous plan.
    increasing the frequency of the line with a shuttle would not revolutionise this line, would not bring any real capacity improvements and would not lead to any real growth but more likely contraction as the benefits of actually taking the train would be lost and it would make the service pointless.
    there would be a small few who might use it certainly, but in reality it would end up with actual low usage and actually would be under thread for genuine reasons rather then the current ideological/cultural ones.
    irish rail won't be able to wash their hands of the line, those days are gone and people are becoming more and more aware of irish rail's nonsense thanks to campaign groups.
    climate change also helps even though it brings it's own challenges for certain parts of the line and wexford is getting no more motor way apart from perhapse the bit into rosslare port so given that network is full to beyond capacity the rail line will remain.

    Post edited by end of the road on

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,229 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    sure, but many would be pissed off when one of these things turn up, they just don't talk about it and maybe don't specifically look out for what they might get if they book online.

    the 29s are bone shakers though and always have been heaps of crap.

    sure, they are reliable and are good people movers on the suburban services they are designed for but on anything long they are dreadful, a bike would be more appealing.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I can only tell you what I hear from others in my area who regularly commute to Dublin. It's a nickname I picked up from the other commuters who were doing it longer than me. A silly one as it isn't shaky at all, just a bit old and grubby, no tables for working on the commute (the few tables are too narrow to use for many). Up until 4 months ago the 6am train smelled of urine across two carriages and the heating was routinely broken in at least one carriage over winter. It is slower than the ICR and therefore, while only minor, is a longer trip. I have met plenty of people who tried it once and have switched to WB. Personally I go up so often that a bus seat isn't feasible for that many hours a day, a train allows movement, stretching etc. So you are right, they don't contemplate it the first time, but they do the second time. Chatting to a CSO on Monday and they were annoyed that the 5 carriage ICRs were going/gone as they would be ideal for the Wexford service. Enough room to make the crowd that gets on a little later manageable.

    This said, my view is still a switchover in Bray using platform 3 but this hasn't even been looked at. Greystones leads to massive delays with the lifts and those with mobility issues, whereas the Bray switch effectively negates these. Have two 5 carriages going up and down. The main issue then is servicing, and I wouldn't know anything about the regularity of that to say anything. The direct service to Connolly is a bit nonsense considering it gets caught behind the DART anyway. but switching earlier than Bray is a pain. It could overtake the resting Greystones DART, not stop, go straight through to Bray. Disembark and wait for that DART to come through. Then it could go straight back out carrying the next Greystones load.

    Like I said, not a train fanatic, just ideas from a person who uses it regularly. If I had the money, I'd drive to Gorey every morning and get it from there.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,290 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I assume a "boneshaker" is something like what's on the Limerick to LJ line or Limerick to Ennis (not Galway)

    I have never ever heard someone complain about the switch at LJ on to some "crappy" train and have never heard it as a reason not to commute by train from Ennis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,033 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    For correctness it is a 29000 set - it is used simply because the 4 car ICR would not be able to cope with the loading on that service (the 05:35 ex-Rosslare) in the morning. It has greater capacity as it has more standing room.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Yep, the few times they forget to switch over the last train, we get the ICR and it is difficult to get off in Dun Laoghaire or BlackRock, but the increased comfort is worth it. Skipping Greystones and using a 5 carriage would solve this though as that is when it becomes truly unusable. Dundalk users from Greystones could get the DART ahead of it, and then swap over at Connolly, it would be quicker through to Bray, Bray is typically clearer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭acceletor


    Most stations aren't all stations. Rail infrastructure doesn't exist solely to serve the commuter.

    Wexford is a good example of this. The census is flawed in my opinion, as a dull day in November does not give a full picture of the usage of the Rosslare line.

    Also on the numbers quoted. It suggests that Rathdrum has more passengers than Arklow and not far off Wicklow.

    I would politely suggest this is nonsense and throws into question the entire census.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Having gotten the Limerick to LJ train a small number of times, it appeared to be a far nicer train but also one you were on for a far shorter time.



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