Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Though sure leinster players getting the majority of ireland spots for years likely is a factor. An all ireland team is a good thing

What i said was he ended the season a key player which im surprised you disagree with tbh he was key

He is particularly slim thats a fact, if the coaches dont see it as an issue thats fine and youd trust them but he is absolutely slim irrespective of what size hes put on

The experience comment is fair but you could put Izuchukwu in poms role tomorrow and he coukd do it. Sam you need to change things for probably take him out of the defensive line for a start

I have no issue with him being there i just wish we did it for others also. If this can help him become international standard then happy days

They do elevate others also - especially in times of need. As has already been pointed out - Crowley had very little material difference in terms of experience when he was given the start against Australia.

They don't need to be as aggressive IMO in accelerating in some other positions because we've got a lot more depth.

I disagree too that just dropping in Izuchukwu for POM would be seamless - he's still a very raw talent. A lot of the things we look for from POM Izuchukwu hasn't shown yet. He's obviously a good athlete but he's far from a finished product.

I disagree about the crowley vs prendergast experience comment

Of coarse Izuchukwu wont be the same player as pom.but he can slot in and fulfil the same role more athleticly at this point but as with anyone that's going to take that spot with vastly less nous but thats going to be the case woth any irish great being replaced

Yeah, absolutely, so if we want to evaluate him on his ability to direct an attack or manage a game, then that's fine. But evaluating him purely on people's uninformed impression/sense of his physical conditioning is utter nonsense.

The reason he's being accelerated is because of the scarcity of viable alternatives behind Crowley.

There wasn't an obvious other candidate to have in this squad - Harry Byrne has fallen away at Leinster post the SA tour. He didn't even make the trip to SA for the semi, and was on the outside by the end of the season. Ross Byrne isn't the answer.

The intention will be down there for Crowley to play deep into both tests (he's still finding his feet at this level too), with likely Frawley covering the bench from a 6-2 split, so Prendergast is purely being brought to get more training time into him and immerse him more in the squad.

Yeah, it's fair, and probably tbh the injury to Frawley too into the mix there, but the difference now is we're over 3 years away from the next RWC. There is time to experiment a little, and bringing in a high potential player as the likely third out half really isn't surprising to me.

Yeah, I agree.

At centre, all of Henshaw (31), Aki (34) and McCloskey (31, 32 in Aug) are getting on a bit. Even Ringrose is 29. Osborne might get a chance in SA, but would be very hopeful that guys like Hugh Gavin and Jude Postlethwaite can deliver on their potential and come through.

LHP is the obvious position of concern. There is something farcical tbh on Cian Healy still being part of the squad. It seems they're trying to shift O'Toole to LHP, and hopefully that goes well, but other guys are struggling to emerge there. High hopes for Jack Boyle at Leinster to step up next season.

I'd be hopeful there will be some evolution in the squad in the November internationals.

Three more starts not behind utterly dominant packs for the most part

What on earth has that got to do with it? An utterly nonsensical point.

Your inability to admit when you're incorrect on basic facts (like denying Crowley and Prendergast have broadly similar experience at the relevant points in their careers) and consistent need to just dig down on your own point makes this tiresome.

Prendergast played in Europe against Sale (at the time they were top of the Premiership, and had been finalists the year prior), Stade Francais (at the time 2nd in the Top14) and Leicester Tigers.

Your bias is simply not allowing you here to see the facts.

Final point on Izuchukwu - and once again, to be clear, I'm not criticising his inclusion, but the progress he made to make it into a full Ireland squad is the thing that is actually really remarkable.

He's a 24 year old who played multiple AIL games this year for Ballynahinch (as recently as Round 12 - in late Jan), so he was fit and eligible for selection and simply not being picked by Ulster.

As recently as January you had people in the Ulster thread bemoaning the fact he had been given a 3-year deal with Ulster, stating he was "certainly behind Harry Sheridan" and noting how he hadn't progressed and how disappointed they were with how few minutes and opportunities he'd gotten (read the posts following this one):

Obviously there has been a coaching change since then which has been significant, but even as recently as April I think people would have thought you were mad if you touted Izuchukwu for inclusion on this tour. He's still the far more surprising inclusion here if you step back from it all than the guy who is one of our most hyped prospects in years at a position of need.

See this is what is confusing, because plenty of you want to claim on the one hand that the EI tours are pointless games against terrible opposition, but now apparently those games against the Griquas etc are the defining difference that means Crowley had enough experience to warrant inclusion at that time, but Prendergast doesn't?

That Sale team was sitting on top of the Premiership at the time - that, once again, is something called a fact. Castres, when Jack Crowley played them in Jan 2022, were sitting third in the Top14, but had already lost two games in Europe (they went on to lose all four). You've called them Top14 champions a few times, but they lost the final that season, and the team Munster beat was heavily rotated (only three starters played v Munster and started the Top14 final that season).

And the sale team was heabily rotated but youve not mentioned that 🤔

Im happy enough to ignore the emerging ireland tour if your opinion is that its was a waste of time but id thought tbat was not the case

Yeah, but I'm not the one claiming anything special about it. You're the one over-talking the Castres game up.

This is how this discussion has gone :

I said: Crowley had very little material difference in terms of experience when he was given the start against Australia

You said you disagreed with that, but provided zero colour or analysis to support that.

I provided you with the statistics to show there is negligible difference in their starts, minutes, European appearances etc at the points we were discussing, and your response was some unintelligible thing about dominant packs, and then a made up piece about him winning away against the Top14 champions.

When those stats didn't serve your argument, you now claim the real difference maker was 33 mins off the bench for Ireland A, or the EI tour games. If that is really the sole extent of what you're basing your argument on then grand, but to me it's more than a bit of a reach.

Once again here - I'm not trying to do down Jack Crowley or claim he didn't deserve the opportunity he got when he got it, I'm just asking for a modicum of consistency in how we approach things.

You're not providing anything to support your opinion, just your own views, which I do think are less relevant than the facts I provided.

Sure 3 more games played, more senior mins, an emerging ireland tour and an ireland a game arent facts. Lesson learned

If you're going to claim things as facts then please, at least, get them correct.

Before getting capped for Ireland, against Fiji, this was how many games Crowley had played for Munster:

16 total games, 7 starts (incl 1 at 15), and 682 total mins.

As of right now today, for Leinster, Sam Prendergast has the following:

18 total games, 6 starts, 638 mins.

At the point when Crowley was selected for the EI tour he had played 5 games less than Prendergast, had 1 less start and had around 156 less senior minutes. Nearly a third of all of Crowley's senior minutes had come in a three game span between the EI tour and the Fiji game.

There is absolutely no appreciable difference there, and the only other defining things are the EI tour and 33 mins off the bench for Ireland A.

If you are claiming that Crowley was sufficiently experienced to warrant an international cap but are saying Sam Prendergast doesn't have enough experience to justify even being in the squad then you're being a hypocrite.

And we both hope he gets a chance to play on this tour because he is well able, hes proven it with his equal levels of experience with jack crowley when he was capped absolutely nothing to be concerned about with himget him on the pitch

If someone says he lacks experience their a hypocrite but if i say hes good enough im disengenious.

Good stuff